Engine help please!!!

[Allens86]

So I have a 1986 chevy c10 and I just put a 350 crate motor in. I put a comp thumper cam in with quiet gear drive and new valve springs. On top I have an edelbrock performer intake with and quick fuel 600 double pumper carb. I have a jegs hei distributor with vacuum advance. So I can start the truck and it runs good in idle but when I shift into gear it dies. Also for some reason I'm having trouble finding my timing mark. I had to advance my light to 40 just to see the mark on the timing tab. If anyone could help I would really appreciate it.
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[pwradder]

could be a few reasons for it to die when it's put into gear, do you have the vac. advance hooked up? if so try putting it on the timed port.if it's hooked to full vacuum and you switch it you will need to re-adjust timing. do you have a stall converter? if not the rpm that seems fine in park will drop out in gear. what is you're idle rpm set at? now about the timing mark-did the crate motor come with the balencer and the timing tab? i'm assuming this is an all new setup.

[Damon23]

I had the same problem. Turned out to be a combination of timing and idle setting.

[LynnJr]

I don't know what the specs are on your cam and what the stall speed is on your torque converter but when running an automatic with a tight converter and a big cam it is common to have the motor die when shifted into gear.

Most guys will keep adjusting there idle speed up hoping that will fix the problem.The problem with that is once you get over 1100 rpm at idle you get past the idle circuit.The carb thinks you are driving slowly down the road and your not your trying to idle.

I am not familiar with your carb but if it has 4 corner idle circuits plus the secondary butterfly adjustment a combination of the two will usually get you a decent idle.By opening up the secondaries a little bit you are giving the motor some more air allowing it to idle without the primaries being opened to far and essentially removing your idle circuit.Do you get dribbling from the primaries?

An old racers trick is to pull the carb off and drill a 1/8 inch hole in each of the two front butterflies next to the idle slot.This allows more air into the carb while keeping the butterflies more closed.The newer race Holleys come out of the box with the holes already drilled to solve this common problem

Does your motor idle for about a minute then start to fade out then die? If yes and you don't have the four corner idle circuits drill the two holes and re-adjust the butterflies.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Originally Posted by pwradder

could be a few reasons for it to die when it's put into gear, do you have the vac. advance hooked up? if so try putting it on the timed port.if it's hooked to full vacuum and you switch it you will need to re-adjust timing. do you have a stall converter? if not the rpm that seems fine in park will drop out in gear. what is you're idle rpm set at? now about the timing mark-did the crate motor come with the balencer and the timing tab? i'm assuming this is an all new setup.

Timed port is best left to the fords.

When I'm off work I will help you with your setup but its to much to type on phone. But I can get you fixed up
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[INSIDIOUS '86]

this is a sloppy mess of a combo

Originally Posted by Allens86

So I have a 1986 chevy c10 and I just put a 350 crate motor in. I put a comp thumper cam in with quiet gear drive and new valve springs. On top I have an edelbrock performer intake with and quick fuel 600 double pumper carb. I have a jegs hei distributor with vacuum advance. So I can start the truck and it runs good in idle but when I shift into gear it dies. Also for some reason I'm having trouble finding my timing mark. I had to advance my light to 40 just to see the mark on the timing tab. If anyone could help I would really appreciate it.
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ok first thing what crate motor is this? you NEED higher compression for a big cam second thing this cam is ranged for a single plane or rpm airgap your intake is to small it will work but your defeating the purpose of a performance cam second NO MATTER WHAT OTHERS SAY YOUR CARB IS TO SMALL!!. why? your your base plate butterfly sizes are to small without serious work to the carb a 650 will have the same base plate as a 750 carb but with higher velocity for daily driving ile talk about the carb later.
third im pretty sure your torque coverter is stock BAD but it can work JUST BARELY
fourth your going to learn alot about ignition and timing soon

THIS IS WHY THE THUMPR CAM GETS BAD REP

lets start with issue one
this cam needs initial timing LOTS all high overlap cams do
an msd streetfire distributor has the stuff you need for the proper tuning we need but we can make do without but again this would make your life easier

you need to get it idling at about 750 rpm out of ger for what we need to do
so first lets set base timing started at 14* initial timing with no vac advance yet. then you need your curve you need to change the hei springs to get all timing in at 3500 rpm or sooner but no sooner than 2800rpm at the lowest
to test this you need a dial back timing light and a buddy or visable tach rev it till the timing does not advance any more change the springs till you hit your goal now plug vac advance back in to FULL manifold vacuum. you also need to LIMIT total timing to under 42* total not including vac timing
many ways to do this but im not going to type a page heres good info http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/hei.htm

ok now we have gotten a base to work off of for the engine and it will respond for us at this point after reading all this take the time to think wether you have the couple of days to deal with this and fine tune it to work otherwise take out the cam and get a 268 cam

next thing that will help tremendously
GET a 2000 stall minumum converter and install it. otherwise our job is going to be hard cause we will be splitting hairs

ok now the carb...mama mia please get something bigger
you need to now take off the carb and this is where all our hair pulling begins
set carb upside down there are these slots at the edge of the butterflys on the carb you can prob see them really good right now cause im sure your throttle is open a bunch just to idle. you need to make that slot look like a square very small http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/ho...8/viewall.html yes we are going to have to drill to get it to idle with the throttle blades in the right position so we can tune the mixture with some response
when all is said and done you have two scenarios either you have a high stall converter and you can put it in gear and it will just barley keep going till you tune it in gear(against a wall or planet sized object with parking brake on) or you havent and you proceed to kill the engine IN WHICH CASE kill yourself no seriously your going to end up drilling big holes and your idle will be at like 1500rpm and it will drop to about 550 in gear
you can see why that converter can either help you or break your back


in a nutshell you threw a big cam in a setup that is not built for making use of it, you NEED stall+gearing+headers and a proper intake setup hell this cam takes stock camel hump heads and works them to their outer limit, vortec heads are better suited to give this cam what it needs to shine plus a high flow intake YOU JUST PUT A 450+hp cam in a crate motor that has possibly 380hp at its upper limits (not talking about what it can handle just produce). a smaller throttle blade carb will require more throttle blade angle than say a 650 or 750 carb and that makes it harder on us too a small carb wont save more gas at all same hogwash as a quadrajet with small primaries vs any other carb. way more involved than that and guys i will be more than happy to explain in another thread


theres more but lets start with this and question time

[piecesparts]

Originally Posted by LynnJr

I don't know what the specs are on your cam and what the stall speed is on your torque converter but when running an automatic with a tight converter and a big cam it is common to have the motor die when shifted into gear.

Most guys will keep adjusting there idle speed up hoping that will fix the problem.The problem with that is once you get over 1100 rpm at idle you get past the idle circuit.The carb thinks you are driving slowly down the road and your not your trying to idle.

I am not familiar with your carb but if it has 4 corner idle circuits plus the secondary butterfly adjustment a combination of the two will usually get you a decent idle.By opening up the secondaries a little bit you are giving the motor some more air allowing it to idle without the primaries being opened to far and essentially removing your idle circuit.Do you get dribbling from the primaries?
An old racers trick is to pull the carb off and drill a 1/8 inch hole in each of the two front butterflies next to the idle slot.This allows more air into the carb while keeping the butterflies more closed.The newer race Holleys come out of the box with the holes already drilled to solve this common problem

Does your motor idle for about a minute then start to fade out then die? If yes and you don't have the four corner idle circuits drill the two holes and re-adjust the butterflies.

BEFORE you go and doodle up your carb by drilling holes in the butterflies, consider changing out your torque converter for a stall converter that has approximately a 2400 stall. Odds are you are killing your engine with the torque converter locking you into the drive train. I did the drill the hole step and ended up replacing the butterflies and putting ina better converter in my 84 truck. The truck now idles at a stop and accelerates properly and without floundering when you try to bring it up over the stall point of the converter.
You might like to talk to these guys about what you need, they have a quality product and stand behind their converters.

Also important, find that timing mark and set the engine properly. Make sure that you are trying to time it without vacuum connected to the distributor. Look to see if you can set the timing at a total advance around 35 degrees and then try to drive the truck.

[piecesparts]

Originally Posted by LynnJr

I don't know what the specs are on your cam and what the stall speed is on your torque converter but when running an automatic with a tight converter and a big cam it is common to have the motor die when shifted into gear.

Most guys will keep adjusting there idle speed up hoping that will fix the problem.The problem with that is once you get over 1100 rpm at idle you get past the idle circuit.The carb thinks you are driving slowly down the road and your not your trying to idle.

I am not familiar with your carb but if it has 4 corner idle circuits plus the secondary butterfly adjustment a combination of the two will usually get you a decent idle.By opening up the secondaries a little bit you are giving the motor some more air allowing it to idle without the primaries being opened to far and essentially removing your idle circuit.Do you get dribbling from the primaries?
An old racers trick is to pull the carb off and drill a 1/8 inch hole in each of the two front butterflies next to the idle slot.This allows more air into the carb while keeping the butterflies more closed.The newer race Holleys come out of the box with the holes already drilled to solve this common problem

Does your motor idle for about a minute then start to fade out then die? If yes and you don't have the four corner idle circuits drill the two holes and re-adjust the butterflies.

BEFORE you go and doodle up your carb by drilling holes in the butterflies, consider changing out your torque converter for a stall converter that has approximately a 2400 stall. Odds are you are killing your engine with the torque converter locking you into the drive train. I did the drill the hole step and ended up replacing the butterflies and putting ina better converter in my 84 truck. The truck now idles at a stop and accelerates properly and without floundering when you try to bring it up over the stall point of the converter.
You might like to talk to these guys about what you need, they have a quality product and stand behind their converters.

Also important, find that timing mark and set the engine properly. Make sure that you are trying to time it without vacuum connected to the distributor. Look to see if you can set the timing at a total advance around 35 degrees and then try to drive the truck.

The carb can be smaller but you will learn that it will run out of air at RPMs over 3500 to 4000. If you go too big, then you overload with a lot of eul while driving city streets. YOu have a 4000 pound truck and that takes a carb that has a higher velocity of airflow to make it work efficiently, if you go too big on the carb, then it loads up and lays garbage onto your valves under low load conditions. Your engine will perform a lot different if it was ina Camaro, but you are putting it into a heavier frame, so buildi it to work in that frame.

I am running a 385 Stroker engine in a 4000 pound 84 GMC with a 700 R4 tranny and a 2400 stall converter, along with 3.73 rear end gears. I have a Comp Cam roller setup and Dart II heads on the truck. I had the same issues as you are until I figured out the timing and the stall issues and now it drives well and can actually idle reasonably at a stop light. WIth the setup that I have it will light up the tires on request and run as ahrd as any pony car.

WOW, how did this end up with two answers to this question????

[LynnJr]

Originally Posted by piecesparts

BEFORE you go and doodle up your carb by drilling holes in the butterflies, consider changing out your torque converter for a stall converter that has approximately a 2400 stall. Odds are you are killing your engine with the torque converter locking you into the drive train. I did the drill the hole step and ended up replacing the butterflies and putting ina better converter in my 84 truck. The truck now idles at a stop and accelerates properly and without floundering when you try to bring it up over the stall point of the converter.
You might like to talk to these guys about what you need, they have a quality product and stand behind their converters.

Also important, find that timing mark and set the engine properly. Make sure that you are trying to time it without vacuum connected to the distributor. Look to see if you can set the timing at a total advance around 35 degrees and then try to drive the truck.

The carb can be smaller but you will learn that it will run out of air at RPMs over 3500 to 4000. If you go too big, then you overload with a lot of eul while driving city streets. YOu have a 4000 pound truck and that takes a carb that has a higher velocity of airflow to make it work efficiently, if you go too big on the carb, then it loads up and lays garbage onto your valves under low load conditions. Your engine will perform a lot different if it was ina Camaro, but you are putting it into a heavier frame, so buildi it to work in that frame.

I am running a 385 Stroker engine in a 4000 pound 84 GMC with a 700 R4 tranny and a 2400 stall converter, along with 3.73 rear end gears. I have a Comp Cam roller setup and Dart II heads on the truck. I had the same issues as you are until I figured out the timing and the stall issues and now it drives well and can actually idle reasonably at a stop light. WIth the setup that I have it will light up the tires on request and run as ahrd as any pony car.

WOW, how did this end up with two answers to this question????

Allen86
Drilling two 1/8 inch holes in the front butterflies isn't doodling up the carb.If you buy a Holley HP series carb they come with the two holes already in them and Holley knows more about carbs than everyone posting here combined.You can call them at 270 781-9741 and verify that.

I just looked up your carb and it has 4 corner idle mixture screws.You want to screw them all the way in and then back them out 1.5 turns each.You want to adjust them all evenly not individually.Make sure and throttle up the motor between each change to clean it out or you'll likely go to far.
If you have already adjusted the primary and secondary butterflies back them off completely and start over.
Put a 1/2 turn on the secondaries once you see it start to move and leave it alone.You can now adjust the primaries.If you have to run the idle past 1100 rpm stop and give them a call at Phone: (270) 793-0900.

If you get it set-up properly and it still stalls on you now is the time to spend $300 on a torque convertor and pull the driveshaft and exhaust and do all of that work.
I tend to try and fix things as cheaply as possible before resorting to pulling the radiator cap and replacing everything under it.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Originally Posted by piecesparts

The carb can be smaller but you will learn that it will run out of air at RPMs over 3500 to 4000. If you go too big, then you overload with a lot of eul while driving city streets. YOu have a 4000 pound truck and that takes a carb that has a higher velocity of airflow to make it work efficiently, if you go too big on the carb, then it loads up and lays garbage onto your valves under low load conditions. Your engine will perform a lot different if it was ina Camaro, but you are putting it into a heavier frame, so buildi it to work in that frame.

That makes no sense. A bigger carb CAN flow more fuel BUT only because it has more air to flow with that fuel. If the engines demand is X atsay 3000rpm then no matter what carb you add the demand doesn't necessarily change. Each carb can be tuned to give a certain amount of fuel for certain amounts of air (thier job to) but its not going to use any more than it can take. In theory if your boosters can still get signal at low rpm then you can put whatever size carb you want but the motor is only ever going to pull X cfm ever.

What I am saying is the smaller throttle blades in fact do not bleed as much air as a bigger throttle plate carb IE 650-750 and will have to have more throttle blade angle as a result to flow enough air and that will expose the transfer slots way to much and give garbage low end and unresponsive mixture screws. It will never idle like that. Drilling holes and getting the transfers correct will be the way we need to go but even a stock gm crate can take advantage of more carb
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[Allens86]

For those who were asking the motor is a good wrench crate 350 with 260hp. The cam is a thumper with .479/465 lift.
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[Allens86]

Also the trans is re built 700r4 that was done about a year and a half ago. The torque converter is most likely a stock style
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[meatwagon83]

i have a thumpr in my dually with a stock converter and it surges in gear at idle, im putting a 268 in it

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Originally Posted by Allens86

For those who were asking the motor is a good wrench crate 350 with 260hp. The cam is a thumper with .479/465 lift.
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You don't have the compression for this cam.
If you want the sound of a lopey idle and none of the heavy burdens of a ludicrous camshaft I would suggest a a voodoo 268 cam and thinner head gaskets
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[Allens86]

Would this cause the motor to stall when shifting into gear but not at idle?
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[LynnJr]

Allen86
I posted the phone number for your carb above.Give them a call and tell them what you have.That cam isn't very big.

[piecesparts]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

That makes no sense. A bigger carb CAN flow more fuel BUT only because it has more air to flow with that fuel. If the engines demand is X atsay 3000rpm then no matter what carb you add the demand doesn't necessarily change. Each carb can be tuned to give a certain amount of fuel for certain amounts of air (thier job to) but its not going to use any more than it can take. In theory if your boosters can still get signal at low rpm then you can put whatever size carb you want but the motor is only ever going to pull X cfm ever.

What I am saying is the smaller throttle blades in fact do not bleed as much air as a bigger throttle plate carb IE 650-750 and will have to have more throttle blade angle as a result to flow enough air and that will expose the transfer slots way to much and give garbage low end and unresponsive mixture screws. It will never idle like that. Drilling holes and getting the transfers correct will be the way we need to go but even a stock gm crate can take advantage of more carb
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Go back to what the others are saying about Holley knowing more about carbs than anyone here. My discussions with them when I first did the carb effort, was that you needed to keep the velocity up and if you didn't then you have an issue with fuel additives plating out on your valves. No brag just fact. I will tell you that you can make a strong running truck with whatever carb, you choose. The 750 is a good choice, but if your engine and tranny combo is NOT just right you will experience a lot of bogging and sloughing around while driving on city streets. Going larger is really good to get the extra flow and fuel at the higher speeds. When I had a 750 on my truck the higher RPMs were easy to reach, but I experienced city street driving that was not comfortable. Using input from Holley and Edelbrock (yep, they agreed on this subject), the smaller bore allowed for more velocity and the nightmares disappeared.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Originally Posted by piecesparts

Go back to what the others are saying about Holley knowing more about carbs than anyone here. My discussions with them when I first did the carb effort, was that you needed to keep the velocity up and if you didn't then you have an issue with fuel additives plating out on your valves. No brag just fact. I will tell you that you can make a strong running truck with whatever carb, you choose. The 750 is a good choice, but if your engine and tranny combo is NOT just right you will experience a lot of bogging and sloughing around while driving on city streets. Going larger is really good to get the extra flow and fuel at the higher speeds. When I had a 750 on my truck the higher RPMs were easy to reach, but I experienced city street driving that was not comfortable. Using input from Holley and Edelbrock (yep, they agreed on this subject), the smaller bore allowed for more velocity and the nightmares disappeared.

There is better velocity yes and that's good on a high overlap cam like the thumpr but this is only because it it improves low end by making better velocity which will fill the cylinder more at lower rpm. Holley will give thier advice as such as a blanket suggestion since not many people can really optimize thier carb for thier combination. Still a lot if knowledge about carbs is kept secret holley barry grant and carb tuners will keep this with them to the grave otherwise they all lost money big time.
Never had an engine slough and bog around the streets with whatever size carb I put on it. Other than a....quadrabog.... Da da daaa lol

Either way a boggy carb can be 10000 other issue other than its size.
Btw crap getting on the back of your valves is what happens when air and fuel seperate when the valve opens. The fuel being heavier continuous a straight path splashes on the back side of the hot valve. This is from poor mixture.
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[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

That makes no sense. A bigger carb CAN flow more fuel BUT only because it has more air to flow with that fuel. If the engines demand is X atsay 3000rpm then no matter what carb you add the demand doesn't necessarily change. Each carb can be tuned to give a certain amount of fuel for certain amounts of air (thier job to) but its not going to use any more than it can take. In theory if your boosters can still get signal at low rpm then you can put whatever size carb you want but the motor is only ever going to pull X cfm ever.

What I am saying is the smaller throttle blades in fact do not bleed as much air as a bigger throttle plate carb IE 650-750 and will have to have more throttle blade angle as a result to flow enough air and that will expose the transfer slots way to much and give garbage low end and unresponsive mixture screws. It will never idle like that. Drilling holes and getting the transfers correct will be the way we need to go but even a stock gm crate can take advantage of more carb
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i agree hole heartedly, and ill point something out that all of us can understand

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

You don't have the compression for this cam.
If you want the sound of a lopey idle and none of the heavy burdens of a ludicrous camshaft I would suggest a a voodoo 268 cam and thinner head gaskets
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the cams specs on this are pretty wild, duration is the cause of it. these cams have high duration, can run 10.1:1 static comp ratio, and still not pre-detonate because of low Dynamic compression ratios because of the duration, and are flexible to any application. thats why there rep is so bad, usually if there very versible, they get thrown in to any motor in any setup-combo car or truck and here we are. but not many know things like this. They get lucky. timing has to alot with it to. and i believe you hit the nail on the head with the vortecs insidious. vortecs Have the popular heart shaped chambers, and can handle up against the wall type comp ratios. id say 9.0:1 will do with this cam and these stock heads. The cam you chose will need that comp ratio to work effectively and broaden your lower end torque range to over power the wieght of the converter. too much air and fuels are for lighter vehicles. you have wholesome truck. i say you dumb down the carb and see what happens. if it runs to rich at say idle, then this can be a problem, cause that cam is demanding it, holding valves open alot longer than a stock cam. this could richen the mixture to were it just chokes in gear. since you have no vacuum controlled secondaries?

[LynnJr]

Allen86
Is the cam in question the mutha thumpr big mutha thumpr or big bad mutha thumper?
I ask because just about all of these posts are not making any sense at all.

These are hydraulic cams meant for low compression smog dogs so they have a good sound.They have increased the duration to add a choppy sound but the duration at 0.050 is still quite tame.My blue haired mothers daily driver runs more lift and more intake duration.On your cam they added a bunch of exhaust duration so it sounds nice.

The thumpr says straight from comp cams to use the stock converter.The big thumpr and big mutha thumpr say to use 2000 rpm stall and 2500 rpm stall respectively.

As to all the carb talk your carb is perfectly fine,I have run Holley 650's on 454's and a 1050 Dominator on a 327.The carbs size sets the amount of air available to the cylinders nothing more nothing less.

The smaller carbs give good bottom end and nice driving habits as the airs velocity is at its optimal range at lower rpm,The big carbs allow peak HP at maximum rpm because they allow the cylinders to fill at very high rpm levels that would be restricted or choked off by a smaller sized carb but they are lazy in the lower rpm range.This ain't rocket science were talking about here.

And by the way the jets in your carb control the fuel not the carbs cfm rating.Small jets in a big carb means burnt pistons at high rpm.Big jets in a small carb means fouled plugs poor mileage and a lazy motor.

The idle screws as the name suggests only control your idle hence the name.

What happens is guys tend to twist the idle rpm up and actually go past the idle circuits range as I pointed out earlier.The carb thinks you are driving down the road when your not and with the high idle the convertor locks up thinking your cruising along when your not.

The fix is to start over with the carb returned to its baseline settings and to follow the advice from Quick Fuel Technology at (270) 793-0900.Call them from your cell phone and do the work while they talk to you.

This is straight from Comp Cams
Hydraulic-(Thumpr™) High performance street, stock converter ok, best with 2000+ converter and gears, choppy/thumping idle,
They list an operating range of 1900 to 5600 rpm the same as a 290 HP crate motor or any typical hydraulic motor from 1955 to the present.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

He showed the smaller of the three thumpr cams really the issue isn't that the cam is all that big (it isn't except exhaust) its that the lobe separation angle is real small. 107 degrees. THAT'S ALOT of overlap. They say they can be used with the stock converter and that's true. And I'm doing it right now in fact in a 400. But I have a single plane intake a 750 demon but high comp pistons and ported heads. This cam really is a modified circle track cam with some old school design with just some newer ramp profiles

The converter being grabby when stock makes this really hard to pull off since we have to tune it as if its a bracket master cam or such. His carb will work no doubt

The two things we are fighting most is compression and converter stall. The low compression is going to make this engine run like a wet noodle the high overlap means we need much more initial than the cams size suggest and a looser converter will help keep it from dying at idle.

No matter what we need to make changes to get it to work with the cam or change the cam out
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[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

He showed the smaller of the three thumpr cams really the issue isn't that the cam is all that big (it isn't except exhaust) its that the lobe separation angle is real small. 107 degrees. THAT'S ALOT of overlap. They say they can be used with the stock converter and that's true. And I'm doing it right now in fact in a 400. But I have a single plane intake a 750 demon but high comp pistons and ported heads. This cam really is a modified circle track cam with some old school design with just some newer ramp profiles

The converter being grabby when stock makes this really hard to pull off since we have to tune it as if its a bracket master cam or such. His carb will work no doubt

The two things we are fighting most is compression and converter stall. The low compression is going to make this engine run like a wet noodle the high overlap means we need much more initial than the cams size suggest and a looser converter will help keep it from dying at idle.

No matter what we need to make changes to get it to work with the cam or change the cam out
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i need a youtube link of a walk around of that nasty 377

[Allens86]

This is just the thumper cam the smaller of the three. Insidious86 the car will run in idle but when shifted into gear it dies. Does anyone know what it sounds like if the torque converter was stalling the motor out?
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[pwradder]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

Timed port is best left to the fords.

When I'm off work I will help you with your setup but its to much to type on phone. But I can get you fixed up
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really why? i have the advance in my crew run this way because after extensive tuning and trial and error, this was how to make my cammed big block/auto stop dying when put into gear. hooking it to full vaccum adds timing, putting it in gear causes the timing to drop out by reducing vacuum.