Steering gear boxes

[First c10]

After I searched the site and really didnt find an answer to my question.
Has anyone used saginaw 800 gear boxes from the camaro, chevelles, etc in our trucks? 67-76 camaro boxes are the same Ii think but not sure please see the link or text
Has anyone done this or tried this? did it work??
Thanks
Scott


http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/...feature21.html



Quick-ratio steering boxes
Improve the steering and handling on your muscle car with a minimum investment



Feature Article from Hemmings Muscle Machines
September, 2007 - Jim O'Clair


An easy way to upgrade the handling on your car is to convert to a quick-ratio power steering box. Many of these were original equipment on certain makes and models, and can be transplanted into many other vehicles, if you know what you're looking for at your local salvage yard or area swap meet.

Early 1960s power steering gearboxes were originally manufactured with a wide turn ratio. Depending on the manufacturer, most were in the area of 16.0:1 to as high as 24.0:1, requiring a full four to five turns of the steering wheel to complete their range from lock to lock (wheels locked from the extreme right to the extreme left). These units were also designed with variable pressure, meaning they have slow steering response around the center point, but improved response as you approach the ends of their maximum range.

With a little knowledge of the differences between power steering units, you can find adaptable quick-ratio gear boxes at your local pick-a-part that will have a more responsive lower ratio, as well as reduce the steering wheel range to as low as two to three full turns.

The most popular gearbox used in GM, AMC and some Ford models was the Saginaw 800 box. Saginaw produced two different basic power steering units. In the 1960s and '70s, most Saginaw steering units produced were the model 800; the model 605 began appearing in mid-size GM vehicles in 1978. The easiest way to tell an 800-type gearbox from a 605-type box is by the type of Pitman cover on the shaft. Four bolts retain the 800-type cover, while the 605-type unit has a snap ring holding an inset Pitman cover. Both feature a nut in the center of the cover, which holds the Pitman splined output shaft in place. Aside from the mounting bolt pattern (some are four-bolt mount, and there are two different three-bolt mounts), the 800 units are all interchangeable. These 800-type units were found on the following cars:

•1964-'84 AMC full-size cars
•1968-'74 AMX
•1968-'74 Javelin
•1965-'91 Jeep J-series truck and station wagon
•1970-'88 Grand Prix and Monte Carlo
•1964-'88 GM A-body cars (Chevelle, Malibu, Le Mans, GTO, Tempest, F-85, Cutlass, 4-4-2, Special, Skylark and Gran Sport)
•1967-'92 GM F-body cars (Camaro and Firebird)
•1964-'79 GM X-body cars (Apollo, Nova, Ventura and Omega)
•1964-'88 Chevy El Camino and GMC Sprint
•1972-'75 IHC Scout
Saginaw 800 units were also used in some Ford products:

•1972-'79 Fairlane, Torino, Elite, Gran Torino and Ranchero
•1975-'79 Cougar
•1977-'79 LTD II and Thunderbird
•1973-'75 Montego
•1971-'73 Mustang
•1969 LTD
•1965-'69 Galaxie, Custom, Country Sedan and full-size cars
•1965-'66 Mercury full-size cars
The standard 17.5:1 steering ratio (four turns lock-to-lock) was used on these units through the 1960s, but a more responsive 14.4:1 ratio (31/2 turns lock-to-lock) became the normal power steering ratio in 1970 on the full-size models. The 14.4:1 ratio replaced the earlier 17.5:1 ratio completely by 1973 for all body styles. Some 1967-'76 F-, A- and G-body Chevrolets also used a 12.7:1 (also 3½ turns), which will interchange as well. These 12.7:1 units are the most popular units for a quick-ratio conversion because of their ease of conversion into other models.

A 14.0:1 unit, which was used on the two-wheel drive S-10 pickup and Blazer models from 1982-'93, will also interchange. You will also find these 14.0:1 ratio units on many Jeep models and some full-size GM cars. Another option is to use the even later model G- or F-body units. They were original equipment on 1983-'88 Chevelles and El Caminos, 1984-'88 Monte Carlos, 1983-'84 Hurst/Olds, 1985-'87 Olds 442s, and 1984-'87 Buick Grand Nationals or T-Types. They are 12.7:1 units, however, and they're not easy to find, as they were used on performance suspension options in many applications. They can be identified by a "YA," "WS," or "HX" marking on the end cap opposite where the steering column attaches. These units will reduce steering wheel revolutions from lock to lock down to 2¼ to 2¾ turns.

An important thing to remember when interchanging these gearboxes is to retain and use your original Pitman arm and idler arm to keep front-end geometry to specification. Different body styles have different length arms: The F-Body arms are longer than the A- or G-body parts, and using the wrong Pitman and idler arms could cause inner fender well clearance problems, if used in different body styles.

When interchanging between earlier and later GM gearboxes, the power steering hose fittings are not the same. Later fittings are metric (16mm or 18mm, instead of 5/8-inch and 11/16-inch inverted flare fittings) and also incorporate an O-ring for better sealing of the fittings. Auto parts stores sell adapters to accomplish this changeover, whether converting the metric thread back to inverted flare so you can use your original hoses, or converting to A-N type fittings so you can have new hoses made. The rag joint or steering gear coupler may also have to be changed, depending on shaft size; these can be obtained with the gearbox when pulled from the donor car, or can be purchased new from most auto parts stores or any GM dealership. The coupler off an early 1980s Chevy pickup works just fine to adapt the early-style steering shaft to the later model gearbox (GM part number 7826542).

The mounting pad on these units where the box bolts onto the frame can be in a four-bolt H-pattern, a three-bolt pattern similar to the H-pattern but without the lower left bolt hole, or a three-bolt Y-pattern, in the case of the Fords. The four-bolt H-pattern and the three-legged H-pattern will interchange for mounting purposes, though an adapter plate would be necessary to mount these units to the Ford Y-pattern mounting.

As with all conversions we feature in this column, we recommend you carefully inspect your donor gearbox to make sure all splines are in good shape and the unit doesn't leak. If it does, now would be a good time to throw a Pitman shaft seal kit into it while you have it out. They are pretty cheap insurance at about $25; these units can be pretty heavy when putting them in and taking them back out again, so you don't want to install them more than once.

Fords present a unique problem, because both Ford's own manual and power steering gearboxes were the same gearbox until the mid-to-late 1960s. Ford's power steering consisted of the manual gearbox with a control valve attached to the end of the center link and a power cylinder, similar to a hydraulic shock absorber or ram unit. These gearboxes were available in 16.0:1 or 20.0:1 ratios, and in either a 1-inch or a 1-1/8-inch steering shaft diameter. Units on some models from 1964-'67 still incorporated the long steering shaft that went up inside the steering column. The same type of unit was used in the earlier Fords of the 1950s and early '60s with non-collapsible steering columns. The later Ford units used a separate steering shaft and rag joint-type coupler set-up from 1967 on, similar to the GMs.

Ford used both its own units and Saginaw gearboxes on various models from 1965-'79, as you can see from the chart of Saginaw donor cars. So, a visual inspection of your unit could reveal your Ford can benefit from the use of one of the GM quick-ratio boxes as well. A two-bolt Pitman cover identifies the Ford units, whereas the Saginaw units were same as the 800-type units on the GMs and used the four-bolt Pitman cover.

If you have a Ford type unit, you could interchange between the 16.0:1 (3¾ turns to lock) and 20.0:1 units (4-5/8 turns to lock), if the shaft diameters are also the same; however, the only way to change to a ratio smaller than 16.0:1 would be to have your own unit rebuilt by a steering box rebuilding specialist. There are several advertisers listed in this issue who can do this conversion.

Some Mustangs and Cougars (power equipped in 1965-'66 and 1971-'73 and manual boxes from 1967-'73) can be made to handle a smaller ratio box by installing a Shelby Quick Steer kit, which uses a longer Shelby manual steering Pitman and matching idler arm. These are available from most of the Mustang suppliers. For Ford models other than the pony cars, you would need to send your gearbox out to one of the rebuilders who perform quick ratio conversions.

Mopar gearboxes from 1966-'74 only came in two ratios: The manual steering gearbox was a 24.0:1 ratio with a radius of five and a third turns of the wheel, while the power steering boxes came in 15.7:1 and three and a half turns of the wheel. Manual gearboxes can be adapted to a quicker 20.0:1 ratio with the purchase of an aftermarket worm gear and shaft assembly from Mopar Performance parts (part number 4007612). Gearbox rebuilders can also install this unit for you.

The only Mopars with a quicker ratio gearbox were the 1970-'71 AAR and T/A models, but your chances of finding a unit in a salvage yard for these cars is almost zero. Using the conventional 15.7:1 ratio power steering box with an extended Pitman arm and idler arm can provide a similar effect in the handling. Although the T/A or AAR Pitman will not fit the common gearboxes, you can get extended length components from aftermarket supplier Firm Feel Suspension. These are available for all popular A-, B-, C-, E- and F-bodies. The added length, as with the Shelby Quick Steer kit, effectively adds to the response of the steering system, serving roughly the same purpose as modifying your existing gearbox or browsing through the salvage yard for the quicker steering unit. Dart and Valiant A-bodies from 1964-'72 would require changing to a later 1973-'76 A-body center link, as well as the longer Pitman and idler arms to maintain the proper steering geometry.

When you locate an acceptable used unit, you can expect to pay between $75 and $200 for the earlier 12.7:1 ratio box and between $125 and $250 for one of the later 14.0:1 ratio units. Many auto parts stores also sell these boxes on an exchange basis in the $185 to $225 range, but expect to pay a core charge penalty if you are not trading in a unit or if the trade-in is not the same as the unit you are purchasing. Considering that many aftermarket companies are selling quick-ratio units in the $450 to $539 price range, you can see why spending a little time at your local salvage yard is well worth the effort.

Completing an upgrade to a quick-ratio steering gearbox or using longer arms to make your car feel like it has a quicker ratio steering box will add handling characteristics to your car's steering, as well as reducing the driver's effort by enabling the steering wheel to be more responsive to small changes in direction.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GM/Saginaw quick-ratio steering box donor car cheat sheet

Late Model 12.7:1 quick-ratio gearbox
ID markings YA, WS and HX
Line Thread Size: M18x1.5 and M16x1.5
Number of Mounting Holes: 3, (missing leg H-pattern)
Input Shaft Diameter: ¾-inch
Output Shaft Diameter: 1 ¼-inch
Number of Turns Lock to Lock: 2 ½ - 3
1984-'88 Monte Carlo/Malibu with Z65 suspension
1983-'88 Malibu, El Camino
1982-'92 Camaro except FE1 soft ride suspension
1984-'87 Regal with FE2 or FE3 sport suspension
1983-'84 Hurst/Olds
1985-'87 Cutlass with 5.0 (VIN code 9)
1982-'85 Trans Am
1986-'92 Firebird except FE1 suspension
1986-'87 Grand Prix with FE2 touring or F41 heavy duty suspension

Pre-'76 12.7:1 quick-ratio gearbox
Line Thread Size: 11/16 x 18 and 5/8 x 18
Number of Mounting Holes: 4, (H-pattern)
Input Shaft Diameter: 13/16-inch
Output Shaft Diameter: 1 ¼-inch
Number of Turns Lock to Lock: 2 ½ - 3
1967-'76 Camaro, Firebird
1970-'76 Monte Carlo/Malibu
1964-'76 Chevelle

1977-'79 12.7:1 quick-ratio gearbox
Line Thread Size: 11/16 x 18 and 5/8 x 18
Number of Mounting Holes: 3, (missing leg H-pattern)
Input Shaft Diameter: ¾-inch
Output Shaft Diameter: 1 ¼-inch
Number of Turns Lock to Lock: 2 ½- 3
1977-'79 Camaro, Firebird
1977-'79 Monte Carlo, Malibu
1977-'79 Chevelle

Jeep/S-10 14.0:1 quick ratio gearbox
Line Thread Size: M18x1.5 and M16x1.5
Number of Mounting Holes: 3, (missing leg H-pattern)
Input Shaft Diameter: ¾-inch
Output Shaft Diameter: 1 ¼-inch
Number of Turns Lock to Lock: 3 - 3 ½
1991-'92 Fleetwood
1992-'95 Grand Cherokee
1984-'93 Comanche
1984-'95 Cherokee/Wagoneer
1983-'86 Bonneville
1982-'93 2WD S-10 Blazer and pickup

Weatherhead conversion fittings
(from your local auto parts store)
Part number M41157X6X16 - AN6 male to metric 16 O-ring male
Part number M41157X6X18 AN6 male to metric 18 O-ring male
Part Number 1446 - female inverted flare thread
(5/8-18) to male 16 X 1.5 metric o-ring
Part Number 1447 - female inverted flare thread
(5/8-18) to male 18 X 1.5 metric o-ring
Part Number 1444 - 11/16-18 thread O-ring
Male to 5/8-18 female inverted thread adapter

This article originally appeared in the September, 2007 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines.

[First c10]

And if so will this work???


http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACDELCO-PROF...ht_1152wt_1091

[Hutch]

Try these guy's http://www.powersteering.com/

[Wrenchbender Ret]

The truck boxes mount on the opposite side of the frame. A guy could probably take the guts out & put them in a truck case.

[First c10]

Oh so the bolt up inside the rail??? That's why I didn't find any info on it.
Thanks

Changing the guts would work right? Has anyone tried that? So if you could find a good used one from a 76 Camaro a $30 rebuild kit and some time and you can build a close ratio steering box 12.7:1?


Posted via Mobile Device

[68K30]

I swapped the Camaro internals into a truck housing years ago, pretty easy swap, follow the manual though.

Bill

[First c10]

How did it work? was it the close ratio style from a 76? Does our trucks have the 13/16" or 3/4" spline shaft?

[JOJABOY]

bump

[Chvy2NV]

great info.. thanks !!

[davischevy]

I use the 78- 79 box. The 78-79 box is approximately 3.3 turns post to post, and the stock is about 4.5. It's a direct bolt in swap. The price from Autozone and O'Reilly is about $140.00.

[wil6775]

Hello;
I bought a 1967 c 10 last summer, and am starting to work on it. I assume the steering box has been changed (I know the column has) as it only takes about 3- 3 1/2 turns lock to lock. My problem is the steering is TOO light...not bad going slow, but kinda scary above 55-60...The truck doesn't wander or jump around, but it takes barely any movement on the wheel to change direction. It already has a small steering wheel (13") so changing steering wheels won't help. Short of pulling the steering box apart, any ideas to slow this steering down? Maybe less fluid pressure from the pump? If need be, I will have it rebuilt, but don't know what ratio would accomplish this.

Thanks

[steelhorse]

wil6775 a larger wheel will help some as it has to move further to turn the same amount. So it shouldn't be as twitchy.

[davischevy]

Try tightening the set screw on top of the box. Be very careful, its touchy.

[burnin oil]

^^ Be careful with this and only go a little at a time. You can not get all the slack out as the center, ie straight ahead, is usually worn more than at the locks. If you go to far to tighten things up there can be bindage at the locks. Go slow and test drive it between adjustments.

[davischevy]

My bad. I stated tighten, and I think it needs to be loosened.

[luvbowties]

Originally Posted by wil6775

Hello;
I bought a 1967 c 10 last summer, and am starting to work on it. I assume the steering box has been changed (I know the column has) as it only takes about 3- 3 1/2 turns lock to lock. My problem is the steering is TOO light...not bad going slow, but kinda scary above 55-60...The truck doesn't wander or jump around, but it takes barely any movement on the wheel to change direction. It already has a small steering wheel (13") so changing steering wheels won't help. Short of pulling the steering box apart, any ideas to slow this steering down? Maybe less fluid pressure from the pump? If need be, I will have it rebuilt, but don't know what ratio would accomplish this.

Thanks

I've seen this "too light" steering scenario too many times. So, after researching over the days/weeks/months/years(?), I recently found an answer. Here is the link, which in a nutshell, shows how to reduce the pressure on our pumps to give us the "road feel" that makes us comfortable. Hope this helps out some of us--please report back if you try it & find joy!

>> http://www.customclassictrucks.com/t...g/viewall.html <<

I wanna try it, too, but my health dictates a need to attempt ONLY a tried-and-true method rather than just one(the article, itself)advocate. Sounds as if it is an answer for many of us; but again, I wanna be sure before I invest my labor in it! *I have a 1966, but my steering is a mixture of 1972-1987 parts, like you guys use: approx. 3 1/4 turns, lock-to-lock, but still too easy.* I did find out that using a lot of positive caster helped noticeably on my personal ride!.

Good luck to all/any who may try and benefit.
Sam

[sambudo]

Good info thanks, currently doing this conversion.

[HEADTURNINGC10]

OK I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT STEERING BOXES DOES ANY ONE MAKE A CLOSE RATIO STEERINGBOX THAT ISNT POWER? I HAVE ALSO HEARD Y'ALL TALK ABOUT REBUILDING THEM WITH DIFFERNT GEARS IS THAT POSSIBLE WITH A NON POWER BOX?

[wil6775]

Thanks for the info and the link....unfortunately, I've already found that info and tried the shimming deal, it's got the max shims in it now, and it barely made a difference. I also tried a different flow fitting that was supposed to reduce the flow, but it was the same diameter hole as the one that's in it now. When I bought the truck it had already had the drop spindles and lowering springs installed, so today I'm getting the alignment checked, and see if we need to add some add some caster and see if that helps.
Thanks again...I'll update with the outcome!

[bMr]

Talk to these guys: http://www.redheadsteeringgears.com/

A new box from them has been, hands down, the best thing I've ever done to my '72.

[WIDESIDE72]

FYI tightening the screw on the box takes the slack out but too much makes the vehicle very "darty". Been there done that with several vehicles.

[EARNHARDT#3]

Originally Posted by davischevy

I use the 78- 79 box. The 78-79 box is approximately 3.3 turns post to post, and the stock is about 4.5. It's a direct bolt in swap. The price from Autozone and O'Reilly is about $140.00.

Yup that's what I used. Got a nice unit for $60 at my local "they pull it for you" yard. Came with a good rag joint and pitman arm too. My stock manual box was 6 1/2 or 7 turns lock to lock!

[davischevy]

If you don't have the box centered it will dart at will also.

I'm not going to tell you how I know that.

[68c10airstream]

First c10, went to auto schooling in the late 70's. Favorite 800 saginaw box is right under the hood of 76-80's gm trucks. It's called variable ratio, (not variable pressure as stated in hemmings article) 3 1/2 turns lock to lock. This variable ratio is the end result of over reacting quick ratio boxes in corvettes at high speed. The truck variable ratio box reacts slower from straight ahead through 1/4 turn left/right/ After that it's ratio speeds up to a quicker fixed rate. This variable ratio box info is stated on the glove box lid. If the 2 steering boxes were taken apart the difference is obvious. The pitman shaft as viewed from above when the 4 bolt cover is removed is this way; fixed ratio and the 3 teeth are the same length, the 3 teeth on the variable ratio has the center tooth is very obviously longer then the tooth on either side. If i had one i would remove the cover and show you but it's in my truck. Stay away from 1996 and newer boxes as they went to an easy steer function and it's way too much assist, you can steer it with one pinky finger. I suggest 76 and newer to get o ring style line fitting inside the box but it can be dealt with by other means. If you plan to autocross then in my opinion this probably isn't for you, but otherwise this variable ratio box is probably the most unknown under rated, least understood box ever made, and i love them. I've read articles about the variable ratio to help with parking, blah, blah,blah, but i will never be convinced after overhauling both styles and driving both styles in trucks. Hope this info helps this late in the thread, good luck, Brian F.

[68c10airstream]

I should add that the variable ratio at higher speeds is a pleasure to drive because it isn't twitchy like a quick box is. Another words relax and enjoy the ride at 100 mph as i have done. There is only one box for me, ha ha.