To disc or not

[sixTsix]

ok fella's im kind of stuck in a delima in my head. undecided on which route I want to go here. so im wanting to get some opinions here.
so here we go, my truck needs major attention in the brakes department, amongst other areas as well ...lol ..gotta be able to stop if I plan on going . right ? right. so my goal originally was to by fall ...to have the front end ripped down to rebuild. well I cant decide to go disc or not. I know I really like to do a correct drop (dropped spindles and coils) instead of cut coils. I know a good conversion is really the best way to go. and if I go this way ...it will be a kit ...whether it be Cpp's or ECE's ...it will be all new ...not some salvage yard rebuild. just cant do that I know theres nothing wrong with going the salvage yard route ... would rather have all new parts.
anyhow .. there is a part of me that really wants to keep it period correct and keep the drums and make them power assist. where the delima lies is im ready to wrench now and knock it out ....I can knock the power drums out now ...a kit have to put together a little more money to buy the kit I want.
I also own a 69 impala custom 2 door hardtop with power drums ...I know drums will stop great when operating properly. im just torn.
something I haven't even looked into yet ..are there even drop spindles for drum ? I think I know my answer, (no) ,there hahaha
I also at some point plan on building a decently hot motor for it so im leaning to the conversion for that reason ...and the drop spindles coils ect ...the purest in me wants to keep the drums ...either way im keeping 6 lug I know that. I don't care about wheel options ...steelies just fine for me ...6 lug came on the truck ..that's what im staying with.
so what do you guys think? think you can help a "head case" like me?? hahaha

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by sixTsix

ok fella's im kind of stuck in a delima in my head. undecided on which route I want to go here. so im wanting to get some opinions here.
so here we go, my truck needs major attention in the brakes department, amongst other areas as well ...lol ..gotta be able to stop if I plan on going . right ? right. so my goal originally was to by fall ...to have the front end ripped down to rebuild. well I cant decide to go disc or not. I know I really like to do a correct drop (dropped spindles and coils) instead of cut coils. I know a good conversion is really the best way to go. and if I go this way ...it will be a kit ...whether it be Cpp's or ECE's ...it will be all new ...not some salvage yard rebuild. just cant do that I know theres nothing wrong with going the salvage yard route ... would rather have all new parts.
anyhow .. there is a part of me that really wants to keep it period correct and keep the drums and make them power assist. where the delima lies is im ready to wrench now and knock it out ....I can knock the power drums out now ...a kit have to put together a little more money to buy the kit I want.
I also own a 69 impala custom 2 door hardtop with power drums ...I know drums will stop great when operating properly. im just torn.
something I haven't even looked into yet ..are there even drop spindles for drum ? I think I know my answer, (no) ,there hahaha
I also at some point plan on building a decently hot motor for it so im leaning to the conversion for that reason ...and the drop spindles coils ect ...the purest in me wants to keep the drums ...either way im keeping 6 lug I know that. I don't care about wheel options ...steelies just fine for me ...6 lug came on the truck ..that's what im staying with.
so what do you guys think? think you can help a "head case" like me?? hahaha

Please, dear god use a capitol letter or a line break once in a while....that mass of text is a headache.

Drums stopping great is a fun story, but denial always happens before acceptance and then recovery. Its part of the twelve step automotive rebuild process. After that comes making amends with all the cars you've hurt in the past.....

We had the same car, 4 wheel drum impala, pro built...beautiful car....couldn't stop without feeling like a damn shopping cart on a train track. Of ALL the things that have changed in cars, disc brakes have pretty much no equal. Even a manual disc brake....nothing more than a hydraulic piston pushing on a friction material....is better than drums. Its the one rare time when new technology is actually simpler than its predecessor. If you insist on the "must buy a kit" mentality, then go ahead and keep 6-lug but at least go disc......


OR

you can get a 70's front crossmember OR just the A-arm setup OR the spindle setups as are ALL listed in the stickies. Any of these options would be no more costly, and afford you disc brakes, easier to find replacement parts, the option to change over to power steering, and *cough* 5-lug*

[Sharps40]

I have 4 wheel non power drums on the 64 and now on the 65 and in the past on my 37/48 and 52 Dodges, 66 and 68 Valiants, 67 and 68 VW Beetles, 62 Impala, etc. They always stop great when you keep them adjusted properly. Most folks bring em up till they just drag and then go ride. Ya gotta get em closer and have the drums truly round but that's the subject of never ending discussion. We always do three things every 5K miles....oil/filter change, tire rotate, check/adjust drum brakes.


To the point, if yer truly, surely and most assuredly gonna put in a motor "Decently Hot"er than a stock V8, I wouldn't hesitate to put in Power Disc/Drum. It'll give much greater performance and much less adjustment, and the power set up look Bad Azz in there with a tweaked V8.

[tincan1966]

The only comment I can offer:

There's a reason why new cars do not have 4 wheel drum brakes anymore.......

If it wasn't a good improvement to make, no one would do it.

[chakah]

^^^ tincan has a point. Disc is the way to go. I know you wanna keep that period correct look but consider safety first if you wanna use your ride. I went with McGaughys disc kit with lowered spindles, booster and master cyl., best choice made. Now remember your steelies have to clear the caliper on drop spindles. You won't regret this choice.

[scottofksu]

I too have spent a considerable amount of time debating about what to do with the front end of my truck. However, for me, the question was never whether or not I should go to discs, it was how to get there for the least amount of money while not having to spend additional cash down the road (i.e., by going to a setup that is "ok" for now but not where I want the truck to be in the end). This debate has left me with the opinion that I will need 2.5" drop spindles ($200-245), 1" drop springs ($100), 6-lug discs ($125), new calipers ($30 - Rock Auto), flex lines ($10 - Rock Auto), new bearings ($30 - Rock Auto), and pads ($50). That's a total of approximately $600. By piecing it together, with no items on sale I am saving $100 over the cheapest front brake kit and springs that I've been able to find.

That being said, rebuilding your front drums would be cheap and would buy you some time to save/find the best prices... Personally, as other have expressed, I would never keep drum brakes on the front of these trucks when discs can be had for so little $...

[T Smith]

It's a good feeling to know if you hit the brakes hard it will stop, straight.

[65 wonton]

One advantage not mentioned above is that you can do a fair amount of work while building the replacement. Especially if you change the crossmenber to a 73-87. You can have the whole thing ready to roll under while driving the very dangerous drums, oops, opinion slip there.

Dave.

[64fleetside]

I spent less than $400 on my setup, but it has been 5 yrs, YMMV, costs have increased-spindles/caliper cores from a junked 71, FLAPS calipers/rotors/booster/MC/hoses, $75 prop valve from CPP.

Bad thing about drums on front is Chinese cylinders/friction material-never know whcih way it might pull.

[Sharps40]

I don't know fellas....drums is pretty darn good. Discs is better, I'll admit that anytime but drums is fine for the original engines and gears. I think lotsa folks, including corporate steared away from drums for two reasons, discs stop better, discs are set it and forget it till they are worn out.

But for me, I'll stick with drums, properly adjusted and well maintained...they are a tinkerers friend!

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by Sharps40

I don't know fellas....drums is pretty darn good. Discs is better, I'll admit that anytime but drums is fine for the original engines and gears. I think lotsa folks, including corporate steared away from drums for two reasons, discs stop better, discs are set it and forget it till they are worn out.

But for me, I'll stick with drums, properly adjusted and well maintained...they are a tinkerers friend!

...cheaper to make, less part #'s in the company catalog, less retooling, and less complaints from customers.


I also think this thread shows more than it is supposed to about a posters age..... the only ones who think that drums stop good are those who were alive to drive non-power drums and cable operated brakes..I'm sure drums seem great if you can actually remember something that stops worse.

[Sharps40]

Only thing stops worse than drum brakes is bicycle! I love all my cars with drums. And, Drums Don't Squeek!

[sixTsix]

You guys do make valid points. I also know that discs are the safest and I do plan on making it my daily, if you want to call it that, hahah. I drive a co. truck during the day ...and mainly use the truck when I want to go somewhere and the wife doesn't, or she has different plans that I do.
That being said, I do want to be able to cruise down the road and stop when needed. Also discs are the easiest to maintain considering im looking for stopping power, reliability without working on them all the time. I don't mind wrenching by any means , but I also want to be able to get in and go with out wondering if its going to be pulling to the left or the right ...needing adjustments ect....

As far as keeping it 6 lug and running steelies what kind of back spacing am I going to need to clear spindles? or does the back spacing even play into effect when it comes to the spindles? I plan on buying new steelings not oem. Do you think ill still have clearance issues? What I plan on running are the chrome smoothies from wheel vintiques, without the center caps. I have been wondering as far as the wheels, what to expect, as ive read here, I know there is clearance issues.

I have thought about , and found some front ends off 73 chev trucks in the salvage yards ...just (at the time) didn't feel like tearing into them and ripping it apart to have to rebuild it. Hence the reason I was looking into kits. Also am looking the route that's going to keep down time to a minimal. I haven't been driving the truck much ...mainly on sundays ...every once in a while ...because of the known brake issues. I mean it stops ...just no where near as responsive as I want them to be. It could be a bleed issues or adjustment issue at this point.
Yesterday evening I got out there and adjust the brake pedal rod ...there was at least 2" of slop in the pedal. Also try bleeding, only to realize theres a order you need to follow in order to bleed properly. So I Stopped. TIme to regroup , then try and tackle again?

Let me ask you guys this. Do any of you guys have issues getting to the bleed screws on the front? The bleed screws I have are short and hard to make quick open/close movements due to the brake line being in the way.

[sixTsix]

Continued...(hit submit while trying to preview)


Ok bare with me guys. As I was typing my last post I had a realization.
Couldn't I just go to O"Rileys or Napa auto ...to buy new spindles, calipers, rotors, dust shields, pads, Bearings and toss them on my truck? I know that it would probably be a tad harder getting dropped spindles from somewhere like that. But hell I'm running factory spindles now, with cut springs. I could just buy lowered springs for the front and not worry about the drop spindles, right?
Correct me if i'm wrong, but one of the main advantages of having drop spindles allows you to lower the truck further than just drop springs correct? So with that being said, say I run factory disc spindles and say 3" to 4 " drop springs how bad will it effect camber ect...?
Another thing I stumbled across while browsing the forums is the caster mod. Should I attempt this as well since im going to have the front end tore down anyhow? I do like the idea of moving the wheel forward by an inch. Ok ill let you guys respond now lol....Sorry for the "new guy" questions ...this is the first early to mid sixties truck I've owned

[Sharps40]

If drum brakes pull left or right you messed up doing the brake work and adjustment.

Its simple, just takes patience....I drive John Lee 80 miles a day, 5+ per week....I do not tolerate any brake issue. Round drums, good shoes, proper snug adjustments pulled up with several mashes of the pedal between settings to recenter and you can pull them shoe faceings to within a few thou of the drums...makes em quick and they stop straight every time!!! But, they are knowledge/skill intensive and that requires time and some extra maintenance....time is the resource that most folks either don't have or are unwilling to allocate. Disc is a better choice for most folks and for all hot engine combos.

[sixTsix]

Well sharps to be quite frank, they don't mash hard enough to pull at all ....Or if any ..maybe a tad to the left. As they sit right now ...I have to engine brake as well as the pedal to come to stop hahah!!! after adjusting the brake pedal rod ...I did get more out of them ...but still not any where near neck snapping. After doing more research on these great forums I did find a few threads that had similar issues to what im dealing with at the moment. So this weekend i'm going to get out there and try to adjust them as well as bleed them as well. Hell I just want to be able drive and enjoy my truck, but I know she's got a lot of issues I must tackle before really making it any where near a daily. When I drive it now ...I just take it easy and drive it like grandpa, no offense to the older fellows


Also sharps I personally haven't done anything to the system except bench bleed the master and the attempt to bleed yesterday. Only reason I bench bled was because the master cylinder was because it looked new and figured the previous owner didn't do it properly or didn't know what he was doing. And to be quite honest I'm just now tearing into the drums ...so I've yet to really get into it too much.

[Sharps40]

could be lots of things, old lines rusted half shut, soft rubber hoses expanding, stuck clinders, etc.

If the pedal is low and the action is weak, and everything else checks out in spec, its almost always a shoe or three ain't as close as it could be to the drum.....

Good luck. Drums will test yer patience, then one day ya figger it out and ya feel smilie good for weeks!

[66Submarine]

Add me to the list of people that are smart enough to make the brakes that came on millions and millions of cars and trucks work, lol. If your truck pulls one way or the other, it's because your brakes have problems, not because they are drums. If your truck has good drums that haven't been turned out a bunch, and good shoes, it should stop fine. Disk brakes are better at heat dissipation than drums, but if drums worked as poorly as all these new guys with brake fluid soaked shoes in .300" overbore drums claim, the human race would be extinct by now.

[65 wonton]

Originally Posted by 65 wonton

...dangerous drums, oops, opinion slip there.

Dave.

I didn't mean to start a p!$$ing contest, just MHO/experience.

I meant to emphasizse that swaping an entire crossmember may have advantages not yet elaborated in previous posts. My experience.

Dave, who also doesn't like computers in vehicles but wouldn't drive one without.

[franken]

Best compromise is disk front drum rear.

BTW, the OP never bothered to mention what truck he/she has... A popular, swap is the whole front crossmember from a disk truck.

Heh, someone needs to go to Motortrend, Hotrod, or Carcraft web sites and see if they can find actual tests of late (front disk) vs X (front drum) year trucks, and say 2012 disk/disk and compare stopping distances.

Call them 1, 2, and 3.

A rule of thumb is 75% of braking effectiveness comes from the front. That is the fronts are much more important due to weight transfer.

1 is ok, but get them wet or hot and no brakes. Keep them adjusted.
2 is best compromise, but 25% effectiveness loss in wet or if they get hot.
3 Best.

Getting the drum brakes hot may be subjective considering shoe material.

The difference in drum vs disk is the leverage involved. you can apply more pressure squeezing than by pushing out. Similarly it's harder to compress a disk than it is to expand a drum open on one side.

Anyone who's driven a vehicle with only rear rear brakes will agree, they don't stop.
Similarly, w/o the rears, the brake system doesn't feel good at all...

[jtrichard]

finally someone brought up wet brakes ....I have had my 63 go through a puddle and then go to hit the brakes and NOTHING (have to ride the pedal for 1/2 mile to keep them working) I have a 73 crew cab with disc front and have never had "wet brake problem" as for keeping it original looking YOU LOWERED IT? hum i don't remember that as a factory option....remember that the older these get the harder the parts are to get and as stated above there is a reason you dont see drum brakes very much any more

[Sharps40]

Originally Posted by 66Submarine

Add me to the list of people that are smart enough to make the brakes that came on millions and millions of cars and trucks work, lol. If your truck pulls one way or the other, it's because your brakes have problems, not because they are drums. If your truck has good drums that haven't been turned out a bunch, and good shoes, it should stop fine. Disk brakes are better at heat dissipation than drums, but if drums worked as poorly as all these new guys with brake fluid soaked shoes in .300" overbore drums claim, the human race would be extinct by now.

Hooo Ahhhhh! Disc brakes are just a social disease, I wanna stop with drums!

[Sharps40]

How in the heck to you get water into a properly sealed set of drum brakes? Yall must be crossin rivers and ponds and lakes in them trucks, or out there peein thru the adjustment hole befor ya go for a ride to get em wet.

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by 65 wonton

Dave, who also doesn't like computers in vehicles but wouldn't drive one without.

I'm not sure I follow you; why would you not drive a truck without a computer?

Originally Posted by franken

Best compromise is disk front drum rear.

BTW, the OP never bothered to mention what truck he/she has... A popular, swap is the whole front crossmember from a disk truck.

Heh, someone needs to go to Motortrend, Hotrod, or Carcraft web sites and see if they can find actual tests of late (front disk) vs X (front drum) year trucks, and say 2012 disk/disk and compare stopping distances.

Call them 1, 2, and 3.

A rule of thumb is 75% of braking effectiveness comes from the front. That is the fronts are much more important due to weight transfer.

1 is ok, but get them wet or hot and no brakes. Keep them adjusted.
2 is best compromise, but 25% effectiveness loss in wet or if they get hot.
3 Best.

Getting the drum brakes hot may be subjective considering shoe material.

The difference in drum vs disk is the leverage involved. you can apply more pressure squeezing than by pushing out. Similarly it's harder to compress a disk than it is to expand a drum open on one side.

Anyone who's driven a vehicle with only rear rear brakes will agree, they don't stop.
Similarly, w/o the rears, the brake system doesn't feel good at all...

What are you talking about, lol. For one thing, 6 lug 60-66 = 1/2 ton, so he kind of did say what he had, although it doesn't matter much. And leverage? What are you talking about? The force exerted is directly proportionate to surface area of the hydraulic cylinder and pressure; brake fluid doesn't care if it's squeezing or not, it's not like your hand, lol. And what do you mean "expand a drum open on one side"? Do you know how the drum brakes on these trucks work?

As for the water thing, I haven't really had much trouble with that. Driving in rain so hard the left lane traffic was going 40MPH didn't seem to do anything. Driving through multiple inches of water repeatedly didn't either, and I was pulling 7,000lbs with no trailer brakes (C-30), so I think I would have noticed, lol. The brake drums are several inches off the ground and covered up by the backing plates; it must have been a big puddle to flood them out, lol. I'm not saying it can't or doesn't happen but I think it's rather uncommon. It certainly doesn't happen every time you drive through a puddle or it rains, lol. For one thing, that would mean most of the 80,000lb class eight trucks on the road would have no brakes when it's raining.

To the OP; why'd you have to start this, lol.

[Sharps40]

The drumdisc debate runs on forever like the 9mm45acp debate.

In both cases the Good Idea Fairy has diarrhea. Both work fine and each have certain nitch areas where one is superior to the other. Long as ya get stopped in time, don't matter much which ya have in place I think....