I6 and a T5, Yet another cat skinned (65 C10 SBSS)

[Sharps40]

Startin this one as a place holder. After catastrophic engine failure of the Olds Rocket 6, John Lee is nearing completion.

New engine is in, a crate motor 250 cu in L6.

T5 is in, Mid 80s Astro/Safari van.

And so far, its about as close to a direct bolt in as one could hope for.

No chopping inputshaft, no choppin bearing collar, no trans to bell houseing adapters, no machining input shaft splines and no hoggin out the splines in the center of the clutch disc.

Machine work is looking (so far) as simple as drill tranny ears for 1/2" bolts, install new made drive shaft (or if you prefer, shorten original shaft and install a new front yoke for fine spline output of the T5.)

So, I'll start with the parts list. Will add part numbers as I get them from the shop. Pics, etc to follow and I'll walk the process thru from prepping the ebrake xmember - to makeing the home made shifter - to the tranny install and hopefully soon....some good stories from the road on butter smooth shifting and having conversations INSIDE the truck at 75 mph w/o YELLING!

[Sharps40]

1965 Chevy C10 Base SBSS

Parts List:

Engine: Oreilly crate engine: Chevy 250 L6, Part number DC76, non integral manifold head: (Save yer tins and manifolds and water pump, nothing comes with this engine but the rotating assemblies, block and head)
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...7&keyword=dc76

Trans: Rebuilt Astro/Safari T5 (14 spline in, 27 spline out, 3.50 first, .76 OD) with short throw shifter parts and S10 tailshaft cover with Mechanical Speedo drive: From Tom Langdon Stovebolt Engine Company: (ATF only this NWC trans per Mr. Langdon, the rebuilder)
http://stoveboltengineco.com/

My T5 came with 9 tooth drive (red) and 20 tooth driven (light green) speedo gears. I'll likely need a 25 tooth driven (no longer available) or 26odd% ratio adapter to correct. More to follow. When ordering, specify your rear gear and tire sizes, yer prolly better getting the 7 tooth drive (blue) gear installed, as it may put you in the range of a 20 to 23 tooth driven gear instead of a $60odd ratio adapter. Get this part done during the trans over haul....breakin the trans down later off the truck ain't gonna be worth it....read that hassle.

Speedometer Cable: 1972 Chevy cable and houseing, 83" long, with threaded fittings on both ends, LMC Trucks part number 32-2022:
http://www.lmctruck.com/ Way more than long enough, now that its installed, an 83" cable is durn near too long! Will prolly dog this down with some clamps to maintain smooth curves and eliminate flex/needle bounce....lube the cable first, it comes dry.

Shifter Lever: 5/8" diameter steel rod from lowes. Build details in the thread.

Ebrake crossmember: We reused the factory cross member and ebrake assembly in the same postion (front to rear) as factory: Placed under frame on small spacers, basically it sits flush on the underside of the frame, the spacers simply keep the edges from bending when pulling up the bolts that replaced the rivits. Perfect function. We cut a bit of the flange off the drivers side to allow one inch of space between the cross member and the factory single outlet exhaust....function of the ebrake with the member lowered is perfect and there is more than enough clearance between the mechanism and the transmission. There is no need to convert to 1966 ebrake assembly when putting this T5 into a 1965 truck, unless you just want to exercise the experience of doing the conversion.

Drive Shaft: New mfg from Driveshaft Specialist, TX, with proper yokes and spicer u-joints: A no brainer, 3" steel, new yokes and spicer joints, perfect fit, 4 days from order to on the truck and at under $400 about $150 less than the local shop wanted to cut, weld, balance, yoke and rejoint the original shaft. I highly recommend.

Bell Houseing/throwout bearing lever and lever pivot/lever boot at bell houseing: Factory 1965

Clutch Linkage: Factory 1965 will work, this project we installed LMC Heim Jointed linkage due to wear on the factory rods. LMC Truck part number 32-6161 Tight fit to factory exhaust but clears....down rod heim joint bolt hits top of DS frame rail, we have it properly adjusted but noisy with frame flex so may well carve a 1/4" notch in the frame and readjust the linkage next. http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/cbe/full.aspx?Page=79

Flywheel: 168 Tooth - 14.150" diameter Power Torque, NFW 1007 supporting 11" Clutch, Orielly PowerTorque NFW 1007, Believe CARQUEST is Bruit Power NFW 1007, Saccs also has one in the same part number- Stand By, Gotta Verify

Clutch package: Astro Van 11" clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing (Reviewed options with Mr. Langdon, Stovebolt Engine Co, he summarized clutch sizes as follows: 9 1/8" S10 is what he uses, great for dailiy driver and normal abuse. 11" clutch is fine too, much better for an "Employee" driven vehicle, i.e. heavy abuse.) Smooth, go's in like its greased, locks up like its a direct drive from crank to tire. Heavy feel is most likely from the stout return spring the shop installed in place of the light weight and tired return spring that was on the original 10" clutch assembly. If so, I may play with springs to see if we can find a happy medium between positive return and heavy feel.

Clutch assembly is Carquest Part# 04-086, or AMS (From Oreille Auto Parts, Same PN) (Chevy Astro Van, 1985, 4.3L V6)..... http://www.carquest.com/webapp/wcs/s...475?acesApp=1#

Shop manager confirmed the Astro T5 is a direct and no modification bolt on to the 65 bell housing. The 11" Astro Van clutch pack and the S10/1500 flywheel are direct bolt in/on and work great even down to the S10 pilot bushing! He has a complete and itemized parts list for me/us.

Shifter Boot: Lokar 70 CLB, Leather

Nut Clutch Pusher: LMC Truck Part # 30-0912

Ball Stud Frame Side: LMC Truck Part # 32-6126

Ball Stud Seat: LMC Truck Part # 30-2392

Spring Clutch Linkage: As available/local purchase

Felt Washer Stud Du St Seal: LMC Truck Part # 30-0695

Ball Stud Engine Side: LMC Truck Part # 32-6122

Clutch Linkage Swivel: LMC Truck Part # 32-6010

Clutch Fork Boot: LMC Truck Part # 30-1920

Clutch Rod Boot, Floor: LMC Truck Part # 30-1909

25 Tooth Speedo Driven Gear: pending acquisiton and test, supposedly Jegs has it and I'm ordering it. Will advise.

[slepysal]

suscribed!

[aggie91]

Suscribed so I can find it later!

[Sharps40]

Started this swap by removeing the four rivets from the Ebrake crossmember. We then accelerated the T5 swap project by crackin 4 pistons in the motor but that's a separate story.

So, here, preppin the Ebrake crossmember for easy removal later and if all go's well we'll follow this up with photos of the crossmember under the frame on spacers with the new T5 in place.
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Took a look at the e-brake cross member and figured might as well get it ready for removal since it'll be in the way when I go to set in the new T5 from below.

Ground off and drilled out the rivets, one at a time since this is a daily driver truck and replaced the rivets with bolts, nuts and washers. Its easier to grind and drill than to try to pop the rivits out after grinding....there's enough boing in the crossmember to make tappin the rivet shaft and head out a slow painful process...so after doin that on the first one, I ground and drilled vice grind and SmashWack.

But, lookin it over from the drivers side...as needed I can put a small knotch in the crossmember and drop it just a bit over 1". Still clearing the exhaust pipe.



On the passenger side....nothing in the way so as needed I can drop the member here more than an inch. That would put the crossmember on a slant but its no show truck and its not dropped either. If one inch left and one inch right will clear it though, that's what I'll prefer to do.



We will come back to this with pics of the crossmember and its relationship to the bottom of the T5.

[Sharps40]

The next several posts detail the initial making of a floor shift lever and installing it w/o welding on an S10 shifter stub. The final part of this project you'll see it installed in John Lee and we'll both know if it needed shortened and/or slightly bent into a C shape ala 55 Bel Air bench shifter....but for now, making a no weld $9 5 speed floor shifter at home....
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Shifter, one each, floor type for a 1965 C10 truck....not cheep on fleebay or elsewhere...so, under $20 and lets duplicate the shape provided by Lugnutz and adapt it to my Astro T5 for John Lee.

5/8" dia steel rod mounted in the drill press and ready to spin up....500ish rpm here and wobble free running against the hole in the table top.



Mark a cut line for the top section that I'll taper in later....



Bottom cut line, about 6 or more inches down, bend will be here.....leaving my top a bit long for trimming later.



Spin the press up to 1100 rpm and grind the steel with the fiber wheel....a 1/2 shank up top and a smooth taper to the lower mark where I'll make the bend.



The taper roughed in with the grinder....



Smoothing at 1100 rpm with a series of files.....finalizing the shape and just a bit of hour glass at the bend so its easier to bend////more likely to retain/keep the bend just in that spot, not up or down the shaft in a big C shape....bending it cold....



Smoothing out the bulk of the file marks at 1100 rpm with good old 100g aluminum oxide paper.....



And now, I separate the main shifter from the stub in the chuck...no need for rpm, just finish the cut with the hack saw, it'll be flat enough.....

[Sharps40]

Flip the assembly around in the chuck, check the runout and spin it up to 1100 rpm again. Polish up the remainder of the shaft with 100g paper.



Simple hand tools and a drill press and a tapered ball end for the chevy shifter....this ain't rocket science, just careful work in a Bring Whatcha Got Garage....





Starting the bend...I have no vice, no torch and no helper....but I have a drill press with a sturdy iron deck.....



The bend stays in the hour glass, no C-shape above or below the hourglass...perfect....checking against Lugnutz drawing.....much more bend needed.....



Sometimes it pays to have a lil extra fatness, after a couple more bends and trys,,,,right on the money.....



I want to leave the shifter long for now, but not quite this long.....lets shorten it....



I picked my spot, chucked it up for 200ish rpm and roughed in the cut with the grinding wheel....stop down the RPM and finish it with a hacksaw....

[Sharps40]

When yer spinnin that bent end, low rpm is the word and keep yer shins back outta the way....its an ouchie in the making....



Pretty good, I should have at least 3 or 4 more inches on this shifter leg than I need but we'll start out long on the adapter and trim it back from there after the trans is in solid against the bell housing.



Getting busy with a good quality 1/2" die and some axle grease.....I put about 2" of thread on the end of the shaft...why 1/2" dia? That's what dia thread my Aussie Red Back Shifter Ball takes......



We'll get a prettier jam nut and collar for the top later but, its lookin like it'll work out on the top end.....



And a rough idea what it'll look like installed on a to-be-shortened Chevy S-shaped shifter spud......

[Sharps40]

Now, we gotta get that over long stick on the T5 shifter w/o welding and w/o masking tape.
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Shifter adapter prototyping time.

If you look at the photos of the shifter on the T5, the Chevy shifter is a 3/4" dia round bar....for shifters are half round and the handles bolt on. Most folks cut off the Chevy shifters and weld their custom shifter on. I don't wanna weld it...I might want to change shifters like GoodWife changes shoes....so...options.

I could cut off the excess chevy shifter, grind one side flat and drill it to accept any of the ford style shifter bars. I might still do that but for now, I want to try something perhaps a bit easier....a nice tapered round adapter that slides on and cross bolts to the T5 stub I'll be leaving behind after cutting off the excess.

So, 5/8" thin wall steel tube slips over the 5/8 rod I bought...so far so good, one end can be mounted with minimal work...but its thin wall. 3/4 inch steel gas/water pipe is a bit over 3/4" ID and as it turns out, perfect.

So...first, get the other end of the thin wall sized up so it'll accept the 3/4" diameter stub of the T5 chevy shifter. Grease, Smasher Wacker and a variety of sockets to slowly expand one end of the thinwall pipe....sorta tapered opening.



Lemmie tell ya, this ain't an easy job...but I got plenty of thin wall to practice with.

One end of the thin wall roughly tapered to accept the 3/4" shaft and the other end left alone to accept the 5/8" shaft...now I grease up the OD of the thin wall and drive it into the gaspipe and get after the inside with the sockets again to improve the shape of the thin wall and its taper.....the gas pipe acts as a hollow anvil.



I split the gas pipe a bit, shape on the installed thin wall sleeve, slit the pipe some more, shape the thin wall installed in the pipe and finally slit the gaspipe thru and drive the sleeve out, the gas pipe retains the taper. "I meant to do that." Lucky me.



The sleeve installed in the gas pipe....the shifter in the top of the sleeve...ready to cross drill and bolt. If it all fits the T5 shifter when rough assembled, I'll set up the lower half of the adapter for two cross bolts to attach to the shifter. From there I can bend and shape my shifter shaft, install the ball and if really industrious, get out my arc welder and some hangers and weld the adapter to the shifter shaft. (Or get my boy to Mig it for a couple Tacos from Tacos El Primo)

[Sharps40]

Time to adapt the S shaped S10 shifter to a straighter stick that'll work with a 1965 bench seat.....

Made a mark where the cut goes, just above the S where the stick will point forward away from the bench seat.....



Work thru with the jig saw and a good blade, that's tuff steel in that shifter....



After a little fitting of the inner and outer sleeves, the both drop on about where I want them,,,,2" of shifter spud in the sleeve and leaving 2" of sleeve to drop the shifter handle into later.



Final fitting of the inner sleeve I made up earlier, it took some shaping of the S10 spud but its a light drive on fit.



After some clean up and deburring all over, the tapered outer sleeve made up earlier looks much better,.....its also a light drive fit over the inner sleeve.....



Jigging up with a gunsmithing scope drill jig to drill 4 pilot holes (two for s10 spud + 2 for shifter handle) in the outer sleeve. Jig gets em on center in and out.....no angled holes thru the shifters leaving thin spots in the shafts.



Once I'm satisfied with the four pilot holes in the outer sleeve (practice/experiment on the $2 piece) I put the outer sleeve on the inner sleeve on the shifter spud, jig it up and thru drill all four pilot holes.....



After each pilot hole pierces the back I change out bits and thru drill the hole for the Grade 8 bolts and nuts that will clamp the assembly together later.....

[Sharps40]

A bit of final clean up and shaping of the S10 spud.....



A quick look on the bench.....



Not drilling the shifter handle now...when the T5 is in place I'll adjust height, base bend and the angle of the ball left or right before drilling and finalizing the set up. For now I have a 20" tall shifter with plenty of leeway for angle, rotation, height, etc. Should require only a touch of adjustment and some paint to finish it up.



With the mock up on the trans, chevy dust boot still works, it'll stay in place under the interior boot.....this is the shifter on a level transmission in Reverse Gear.



Here the level trans, shifter in first gear....the short shift kit is lovely, I'd estimate total throw from Reverse to first at 6" or less! The throw from first to second to third/fourth/fifth is wonderfully close together!



Time to go make a shifter knob jam nut....I'm unemployed till Bungholio and his staff get a budget so, makin nuts is the way I'm goin instead of buyin em.

[Sharps40]

Best I can do with Paint...pics are close to the same size and angle. At least in this wag, ya can tell it ain't a long throw from reverse to first. The short throw kit should make for a nice smooth and easy to manage transmission in John Lee. Lookin forward ta seein if the shorter throw leaves me a bit of room for a cupholder on the hump....kinda got spoiled havin one there right by the seat!

I'm wonderin about the reach right now....shorter shouldn't hit the dash and oughta clear the seat in any event. But from a standpoint of reachin up to first, third and fifth, I'm thinkin this one might wind up a bit C shaped like the 55 57 hurst Bell Air Bench seat shifters.....we'll C....get it? We'll C? Yep, been drinkin good bourbon again........goin down for more....

[Sharps40]

For reference, and thanks to Lugnutz, the Common T5 installations....Camaro (V8 not necessarily V6) which is usually a direct bolt in to our I6 bellhouseings (remember that in a moment).

And the S10 T5 that usually needs an adapter or cut/chopped/splined and/or clutch plate ground up.

Focus on memorizing the measurments on the Camaro V8 T5. Now, immediately go look at the next post.....its an Astro/Safari Van T5.......

Overall its nice to have an Astro/Safari T5 and none of the adapter/cutting worries of the V6 Camaro and S10 T5s.

[Sharps40]

If you memorized the Camaro shaft length and compare the bearing collar length, see the similarities to the Astro T5? Astro is a direct bolt on too. (No chopping input shaft or bearing collar, no adapter plate needed - each of which are possible requirements to use the S10 T5 trannies.)

Differences? Astro T5 has 14 spline 1" dia input shaft like the S10.......and....Astro has better first gear than S10 which is durn near 4 to 1.
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Now, please note, this trans is from 262 cubic inch V6 that came in the mid 80s to early 90s Chevy Astro Van. This is a Non World Class transmission. It was overhauled by Mr. Langdon, Stovebolt Engine Company. The S10 tail shaft was added. The shifter was set up with the short throw parts.

Per Mr. Langdon at Stovebolt, use ATF in this transmission....no gear oil allowed.

[Sharps40]

PM any questions or concerns. I'll try to answer them in additional pics when I get to the truck/and address them best I can in follow on posts to this thread.

[1963c-10]

Nice write up on it Rich. Can't wait to go for a spin with you next time I'm up that way. With the new engine and trans you should be set pretty nice. Still gotta make some time to get those trees down for you. Been busy climbing a few of my own lately to widen the driveway and get more logs for the new barn for the 63.

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by Sharps40

For reference, and thanks to Lugnutz, the Common T5 installations....Camaro which is usually a direct bolt in to our I6 bellhouseings (remember that in a moment).

And the S10 T5 that usually needs an adapter or cut/chopped/splined and/or clutch plate ground up.

Focus on memorizing the measurments on the Camaro T5. Now, immediately go look at the next post.....its an Astro/Safari Van T5.......

My only comment here is that the V8 Camaro/Firebird T5 has the correct length 26 spline input shaft and does NOT need any adapter plate. HOWEVER, the V6 Camaro/Firebird T5 DOES need it. The V6 Camaro/Firebird T5 has a 14 spline input shaft that is the same length as the S10 (at least the ones I have seen are the same length as the S10).

[Sharps40]

Originally Posted by 1963c-10

Nice write up on it Rich. Can't wait to go for a spin with you next time I'm up that way. With the new engine and trans you should be set pretty nice. Still gotta make some time to get those trees down for you. Been busy climbing a few of my own lately to widen the driveway and get more logs for the new barn for the 63.

I got the leaves and mosta the dog turds outta the way! I'm cutting the apple trees down in Dec....tied of getting attacked by ground wasps.. I'm allergic. Already gasoline the nests! Gonna make some nice spring firewood for the pit! We'll grill some beast and have fun. Still got parts here for ya....bed steel for yer Ol John Lee Trailer project.

[Sharps40]

It looks to me like the Astro/Safari T5 is the best selection though it seems to be a rare transmission.

Its not going to need an adapter or chop to the input components like some V6 Camaro and all S10 T5s

It has a 3.5 first gear and .76 final drive which is better on both ends than many of the gear options in the Camaros/S10s.

In challenges.....ya still need to find an S10 mech speedo tail housein if yer running bench seats and its more rare, Astro/Safari only seemed to be offered with the manual gear box from 83ish to 90ish....I recon there weren't many mini vans with manuals in em, cept maybe for contractor vans.

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by Sharps40

Gotcha Lugnutz.....I went back up and referenced the possibility of differences in the Camaro V8 and Camaro V6 T5s as applies to whether they bolt on or need adapters/chops, etc.

It looks to me like the Astro/Safari T5 is the best selection.

Its not rotated like the Camaro.

Its not going to need an adapter or chop to the input components like some V6 Camaro and all S10 T5s

It has a 3.5 first gear and .76 final drive which is better on both ends than many of the gear options in the Camaros/S10s.

In challenges.....ya still need to find an S10 mech speedo tail housein if yer running bench seats and its more rare, Astro/Safari only seemed to be offered with the manual gear box from 83ish to 90ish....I recon there weren't many mini vans with manuals in em, cept maybe for contractor vans.

Actually, the Camaro T5 is NOT rotated, UNLESS you use the Camaro bell housing. If you look at THE PHOTO BELOW (Camaro V8 T5 mounted on the 1965 factory bell) there is no rotation. The rotation in a Camaro car installation is caused by the Camaro bell, NOT the T5.

[Sharps40]

Of the myrad of T5 choices it seems we can summarize with confidence for 64ish to 66ish I6 bell houesings:

1. S10 T5 will fit our I6 bell housings - Adapter and/or machine work on the input shaft/bearing collar/splines/clutch splines likely
required. Typically a 14 spline input shaft at 1" diameter. I believe the original Skin the Cat thread in FAQ address this quite well. Ol Bleu indicates his recent S10 T5 installation went in with an Adapter Plate and about 1/4" removed from the bearing collar.

2. Camaro V8 T5 will bolt up w/o machine work to input components/no adapter. Typically 26 spline input shaft at 1 1/8" diameter. No rotation on early bell housings.

3. Camaro V6 T5 appears strongly to have input shaft/collar length similar to the S10 T5 and may require similar input shaft/collar mods and/or an adapter. Typically a 14 spline input shaft, diameter undetermined. No rotation on early bell housings.

4. Astro Van T5 is a bolt up to our I6 bell housings and requires no machine work to input components nor an adapter. Typically a 14 spline input shaft of 1" diameter ( Shop manager confirmed: The Astro T5 is a direct and no modification bolt on to the 65 bell housing. The 11" Astro Van clutch pack and the S10/1500 flywheel are direct bolt in and work great even down to the S10 pilot bushing! He has a complete and itemized parts list for me/us.)

5. Any of these will need the S10 tail shaft housing for use with bench seats.

By the way, Lugnutz has a whole separate page of T5 info. Check out his signature line, cool page.

[Sharps40]

Couple updates to the post above. We are confirmed (in the real world, no more internet myth!) the Astro Van T5 is a total bolt on installation to a 65 C10 I6 bell housing with all off the shelf parts and NO modifications to any of the rotating parts.....simply blot em all into place.

Essentially, S10/1500 flywheel + Astro Van 11" clutch kit + 1965 clutch fork assembly + 1965 bellhousing = all coupled to a 250 I6.

So, we are a driveshaft short of final tune and first test drive. Should be bringin it home next week for plenty of photos and I'll have an itemized list of part numbers for this minimal modification/mostly factory parts T5 installation on an I6.

[joedoh]

sharps getting it done! I was wondering when you were posting your astronomical mpg numbers if you werent leaning it out. Seems like you got it fingered out now though, nothing like driving a brand new truck!

[Sharps40]

I was worried about lean too. But per the builders here of Hi Po engines with Weber carbs, the settings and MPG numbers for the 250 are correct/not over lean. So, the weber went back on the new crate motor with no changes and no richening of the jets. The professional opinion is the catastrophic failure of 4 pistons was timing a bit high and 87 octane alcohol gasoline.

We are running at base timing of 4 BTDC for 500 miles and then timing up. I spect we'll see 18 mpg or better when the engine is scuffed in since we have 2 more gears and a nearly 800 rpm drop in overall spin rate. Shop is thinking 10 BTDC or so, Tom recommended up to 14 BTDC with mid grade fuel. I might play it a bit more conservative on the advance this time around.

But, I spect I'll be poppin for an autometer Fuel/Air gauge with O2 sensor. Should really help with tuning later....just curious if the clamp on bungs work well or should I go have a nut welded in my bunghole!

[1963c-10]

I'd have it welded on Rich.