Frustrated! Regretting decision to HACK up and lower my truck

[thomps92]

Hello, I'd like to start by saying hello and introduce myself. I am a huge fan of chevy trucks and cars and have been into hot rodding my whole life and am 36 years old. I'd like to use this post to discuss some things that I have encountered by lowering my truck and installing airbags in the front.....things that vendors and others tend to leave out of the discussions...I've found anyways. Let's start with the background: 1983 chevy c10 with a 305. Body is in good condition and it's a daily driver, or at least that was my goal with the build. I live in Upstate NY so the driving season is short. If we are lucky it's April to October. So last summer 2013 my buddy told me I should lower my truck. After some significant research I decided to go ahead and do it. The airbag suspension has always intrigued me since I could run my truck low and then air it up for hauling, or getting over curbs, if needed. What also intrigued me was that I could build the system with the money I had saved up and add to it in the future. I was totally fine with just having shrader valves to control the air until I could afford a tank and compressor. My first experience was installing what was advertised as 4 inch lowering leaf springs in the rear from a well know distributor out in California. I called em and posed the question, "I will get a 4 inch drop with your product right?" "Yup, Yup, Yup" the guy says. Ok, so I dropped $450 on those babies just to have them installed and it only yielded a 2 inch drop. The company and I go back and forth...I submit pictures....they agree.....their product was misadvertised and doesn't really give anyone an actual 4 inch drop. So in exchange they give me a free flip kit. Ok good enough....I'm happy and get it installed. So the back end sits reasonably where I want it and it's time to tackle the front. I've called and talked with several vendors about their bag, plate and cup packages for c10's. I said, "this product will give me this amount of drop that I am looking for right?" "Yup, Yup, Yup" they say. Additionally, I already had 2.5 inch drop spindles already installed. Well lo and behold I get the plate, bag and cup brackets installed and interestingly enough my truck sits at the ride height I already had with the dropped spindles and stock springs. "Hmmmm", I say. Now what? Nobody seemed to mention that I would also have to purchase control arms if I really wanted this to function like I wanted. Well, I wasn't really budgeting $1,000 on control arms, but for safety's sake I decide to spend the money and buy a set of Strong Arms. I ask the vendor if I can run shortened shocks in the stock mounts on the truck frame. "Yup, Yup, Yup" they say. Ok. I get the control arms installed and find a set of monroe shocks that will give me the amount of travel I need.....I am almost home free I think. Oh wait, How do I get the wheels to tuck way up into the front fenders? Oh I've gotta rip out my front inner fenders. Ok. No big deal I say....I don't care if my engine compartment is filthy all the time. Oh wait.....Now I've gotta cut the webbing on my fenders to allow the tires to tuck way up in there. Ok. No biggie....it's all in the name of being cool and getting the ride and stance I want. Sweet I am almost done with my project. I've got the stance I want and I've got a measurement of 24 inches from my front fender lip to the ground and 26 inches from my back fender lip to the ground. The other requirement of this project was that I could run 15 inch wheels all the way around. Personally, I am old school and don't really like bigger rims on a project like this ( to each there own right? ) so 17's-20's are outta the question, for me anyways. I drive it like this for the rest of the summer. It rides fantastic and I love it!!!! The front crosmember will sit on the ground if I want it to. I can air it out (in the front)at a show and I get tons of thumbs ups and compliments. Sweet this is exactly what I wanted!!!! I can air it back up with my pancake compressor and I haven't broken my budget to badly. So, I invest in new tires all the way around for my 15 inch rims.


Alright fast forward to summer of 2014. I've encountered a little problem.....My monroe shocks that I have installed don't really like the angle they are mounted at and I end up breaking one on the driver's side. Ok no biggie I exchange it for a new one and call the vendor of my control arms to inquire if I can use the stock mounting holes on my frame. "Yup. Sure can" they say. Ok. so I think it must be a fluke that this shock broke so I will install another one and do so. SO HERE IS WHERE MY FRUSTRATION BEGINS I travel a few hundred miles on a camping trip and things are going great. My truck is running like a dream and is super smooth. I couldn't be happier.....until for some unexplained reason I decided to pull my front driver's side tire off just on a fluke after I returned home from camping. What did I find? My shock broke again and almost punctured my bag!!!!!!!!!!! HOLY COW! I could have died if I lost my bag. So I call around to several vendors and get differing opinions about things with the funny thing being that the people that sold me the control arms don't have a solution for the problem. Nobody there will acknowledge the need to relocate the front shocks. Only after several weeks and talking with several people of the same company does anyone acknowledge that they actually do make a shock relocating bracket and that they will actually sell it to me. The bracket isn't listed in their catalog, or their website and their technicians (that I spoke with at a trade show) didn't even know the part existed.


So after this incident I decide that I really need to make sure this vehicle is safe for me and others travelling on the roads. What happens if I lose a bag? What happens if I lose a tire? I call a couple vendors I did business with and pose those questions to them. They say, "Ah don't worry about it. Nothing's gonna happen. We've only had a couple problems over the years. It's mostly installation error." So I decide to take the dreaded "scrub line" discussions seriously and take an honest look at my set up. I guess that most of these guys laying frame don't seem to care about these things at least from my research anyways. Nobody really seems to talk about it when I engage them in a discussion. So I have snapped a few shots of my set up for you to analyze. What frustrates me right now is that my truck ISN'T GOING TO BE SAFE UNLESS I THROW SEVERAL THOUSAND MORE DOLLARS AT IT. I don't have the money and this project was supposed to be done last year and it's only just beginning, it appears. From looking at my scrub line I will absolutely have to go with 18-20 inch rims to avoid a blowout catastrophe since my lower control arms sit below the lip of my wheel. Nobody really seems to talk about that do they? This project was for 15 inch rims...NOT 18-20. I don't see anyway around it....if it's gonna be safe I have to go with bigger rims.....so there's another $2-3000 I never anticipated spending on rim designs I don't even like (no offense to you guys running big rims). Additionally, I seriously need to consider bump stops to keep by front end from crashing into the pavement should a line go. Bump stops aren't a big deal to do, but lately I am disgusted whenever I look at my truck. I am broke, disappointed and searching for a solution to my problems. It's either take the truck back stock (don't really want to do that), ditch the air bags and keep my 15 inch rims for a static drop with 3 inch lowering springs and my 2.5 dropped spindles, or spend thousands more and finish the job with 18-20 inch rims, a tank and compressor, a 4 link and get myself way in over my head in expenses and time. Anyone else have a similar experience or want to provide some advice? I am at my wits end and just want to park the project for a long time. Thanks for your imput


PS I will give a shout out to AIR LIFT who offered to send me, free of charge, a new Dominator 2600 airbag after I submitted a picture for them to assess the condition of my airbag, for safety after the shock incident. Thanks AIRLIFT!!!!!

[SCOTI]

Get the front shock relocation brackets you mentioned & it should prevent future shock related failure.

Scrub line issues are quite common w/dropped trucks & many do 'glaze over' the legit concerns you mentioned.

To avoid getting "way in over my head in expenses and time" sell the arms w/the bags & go static if you don't wish to invest in upgraded air suspension or larger diameter rolling stock. Selling them should allow you to get OE lowers w/some dropped coils & put some coin in your pockets or come out of it even.

No breaking the bank + bumpstops already built in. True, you just won't be able to adjust the ride height. But you won't be out of pocket either....

[liftlawssuck]

100% agree with above. Most people overlook at lot to get the look. Couldn't agree more with above. Go static. Get the look you want and feel safe while doing it.

[thomps92]

So I'm not wrong in concluding that driving a dropped truck is like riding a motorcycle........its a matter of risk vs. reward and one catastrophe could mean your life? I just think it's funny that nobody really talks about it. LOL . Just looking at my control arms hanging below my rims got me thinking about what the heck would be the outcome of a blown tire? The whole arm would tear into the pavement.....and who knows what then. Would I spin out of control? Would the arm get ripped off? Would I veer into oncoming traffic? I guess it's better to just not think about those things. I have had blowouts before on other vehicles and I know others who have them too so they aren't that uncommon in my opinion and a real world possibility. So the only legitimate way I see to correct that would be bigger rims to get that control arm higher than the lip of the rim and bumpstops for the bags or go static. Thanks for the input.

[bdiamond]

The low hanging control arms are probably the biggest design flaw of our trucks. I've knocked the arms off the bushing on a couple occasions. Mine is static dropped about 5" in the front even at that drop the control arm bushing is still lower than the rim. As far as putting one on bags it seems like a spiral where one thing requires another and nothing is easy or cheap.... I have looked into pancaking a crossmember. Its neither simple or cheap, but it would get the control arms up a bit.

[KQQL IT]

The usually make a bunch of noise and cool sparks.

Ps truck looks so *****in!

[dragn91]

Just put in bump stops so that if you blow a bag it will hold the control arms up off the ground just a bit. I don't even see the need for aftermarket control arms if you allready have drop spindals and bags. I'd put the stock ones on with the bump stops on them and then you shouldn't have a scrub line problem unless it's the spindals that cause the scrub line problem with the 15s and not the control arms

[thomps92]

Thanks for the replies. SO , let's say I revert back to the OE control arms and either cut 1.5 coils off the original springs, or purchase 3 inch drop springs and combine that with my current 2.5 inch drop spindle, or purchase a 3 inch drop spindle will I still be looking at violating the scrub line in the event of front tire blowout with that low of a stance? Will the OE arm hang below the 15 inch rim with a lowered set up like that? I'd still like to keep the front riding at about a 24 inch front fender to ground height which is indicated in this picture. Everything clears pretty well at that height since I have shorty headers and a tucked exhaust. Thanks. Just trying to weigh my options and keep things safe.

[SCOTI]

Without changing the location of the x-member & a-arm pivot points, some part of the arms will be below the wheel scrub line w/15" wheels on drops greater than 2-3".

[KQQL IT]

Make a bump stop.
I've clipped two coils and flipped several C10s
At two coils you will have run longer bolts. Not ideal I guess but works, if your set on static drop.

[Skunksmash]

And never trust those idiots that run the phones at the speed shops. All they are is parts counter clerks who don't have a clue what they're talking about. To me it sounds like that was a big portion of your problem. Come here first!

[thomps92]

Yeah, I guess I was naive to think that a big name in the suspension business would be open to feedback from their customers. Interesting how far I got once I said, "well I am considering a 4 link" and their whole tone changed to "oh yeah, yeah , yeah sir...let us help you out with those obscure shock relocation brackets that we normally only sell in a kit because we don't want do it yourselfers piecing together our products." Yet interestingly enough one full page of their catolog is nothing but "do it yourselfer" type brackets. Oh well, they gave me reasonable price on them.....finally. Guys at AIRLIFT were awesome.....now they provide customer service!!!!! Now comes the decision whether to sink boatloads more money into the project but, at least I've gotten real and honest answers from the forum and can mull over the possibilities over this fall and winter. Thanks Guys

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Skunksmash

And never trust those idiots that run the phones at the speed shops. All they are is parts counter clerks who don't have a clue what they're talking about. To me it sounds like that was a big portion of your problem. Come here first!

Even on this site, some replys can be questionable. I would always go with answers that are 'majority recommended' vs the 1 or 2 guys that say "it can be done because my set-up is that way & works just fine".

Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's as safe as being done in an alternative way. Factor in all the possible combinations of parts & there's no 100% guarantee the parts sold will work for everyone. IMHO, that's where the failure was here (someone not saying it may/may not work).

[KQQL IT]

If your vendor can't get the shock brackets.
These are 4wd k10 with factory dual shocks.

[Desert1957]

I thought from reading many "Drop" threads on this forum, you could not run dropped spindles with tubular bagged style A arms. From the pic you posted wheel is way above the control arm.

If you re install the stock spindles , you are saying its not enough drop?

Curious to know what caused the dent on the shock you have pictured?

Desert

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Desert1957

I thought from reading many "Drop" threads on this forum, you could not run dropped spindles with tubular bagged style A arms. From the pic you posted wheel is way above the control arm.

If you re install the stock spindles , you are saying its not enough drop?

Curious to know what caused the dent on the shock you have pictured?

Desert

You can run drop spindles w/tubular arms.

You should not run drop spindles w/tubular 'dropped' a-arm (arms where the spring pocket is modified to be deeper to achieve the drop). As can be seen in the posted pic.... Imagine how dangerous those arms would be if the bottom of the spring pocket was another inch or two deeper.

That being said, the pic doesn't lie. Even when lowering your truck w/drop spindles, OE arms or aftermarket units, w/cut coils (or bags).... there can be scrub line issues.
The safest way is an aftermarket front x-member designed w/higher pivot points for the a-arms (or a modifed OE x-member/frame). You get the drop & better clearance w/o scrubline problems.

[thomps92]

Ok. Thanks. I received the relocation brackets and they should work for what I need. I think SCOTI's got it right. Lately, I have been searching for someone to back up what I have been thinkin' about the project lately. There was alot of "oh yeah it'll be fine set up that way....works for me , (or works for my buddy)" comments. If I hadn't have had a bag almost blow then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, but I like to learn from mistakes and take events like this seriously. I really don't want to go skidding down the road at 70 mph in my daily driver and seriously injure, or kill myself or others and destroy my truck. It's just interesting to me that nobody really discusses these things or "glazes" over them.

As far as the dropped spindles I will let others chime in on that. I was under the impression you want to run dropped spindles to get the lowest possible ride height, but you are right the control arm hangs below the rim that way especially with 15 inch rims (and that's a FACT that seems to be hard to come by in discussions).....hence, probably why most dudes are running 20's. As far as being happy with my truck sitting up 2.5 inches higher by putting the OE spindles back in.....I just don't think it would satisfy me having been so low before. I'd almost rather take my truck back to stock appearance all the way around. The project is up in the air for now as far as the direction I am going to proceed but If I were 20 yrs old again I'd probably not give a darn about safety. The dent on the shock was caused by something that's for sure. The shock broke and was facing forward resting against the bag and riding there for who knows how many miles. It was fine when I popped the hood before I left to head home and the trip was about 300 miles before I reached my destination. That's why I am not ignoring the problem. I am very, very lucky nothing happened. VERY LUCKY.

[gchemist]

Upgrade the bushing to polygraphite. I did it on mine. All front rubbing issues when away. Even after going to a larger tire.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by thomps92

Ok. Thanks. I received the relocation brackets and they should work for what I need. I think SCOTI's got it right. Lately, I have been searching for someone to back up what I have been thinkin' about the project lately. There was alot of "oh yeah it'll be fine set up that way....works for me , (or works for my buddy)" comments. If I hadn't have had a bag almost blow then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, but I like to learn from mistakes and take events like this seriously. I really don't want to go skidding down the road at 70 mph in my daily driver and seriously injure, or kill myself or others and destroy my truck. It's just interesting to me that nobody really discusses these things or "glazes" over them.

As far as the dropped spindles I will let others chime in on that. I was under the impression you want to run dropped spindles to get the lowest possible ride height, but you are right the control arm hangs below the rim that way especially with 15 inch rims (and that's a FACT that seems to be hard to come by in discussions).....hence, probably why most dudes are running 20's. As far as being happy with my truck sitting up 2.5 inches higher by putting the OE spindles back in.....I just don't think it would satisfy me having been so low before. I'd almost rather take my truck back to stock appearance all the way around. The project is up in the air for now as far as the direction I am going to proceed but If I were 20 yrs old again I'd probably not give a darn about safety. The dent on the shock was caused by something that's for sure. The shock broke and was facing forward resting against the bag and riding there for who knows how many miles. It was fine when I popped the hood before I left to head home and the trip was about 300 miles before I reached my destination. That's why I am not ignoring the problem. I am very, very lucky nothing happened. VERY LUCKY.

I know you're wanting to stick w/15" wheels, but w/tires becoming more & more limited in the smaller (old OE) sizes, have you considered larger diameter wheels that appear similar? Some 17's or 18's would still utilize a decent sidewall height & would help your scrub line concerns.

17's are todays old school 15's

[thomps92]

Well that's what I've got to ponder over. Never really got into the whole 17-22 inch wheels....not saying that I can't, but I recently dropped $800 on new rubber for my 15's. 235/ 70/15's in the front and BF Goodrich Silverton's from Coker tire 285/70/15 meats on the back. It was just the look I was going for....dropped drag looking truck like the attached pics. Lot's to think about over the winter