454 swap questions. Please help!

[Dfowlerak]

I'm about to be putting a 454 from a 94 Chevy suburban in my 72 chevy k10. The concern I have is that the 454 is tbi. I have heard that you can just remove an adapter and slap a carburetor on and that will work but I was thinking about putting a Q jet on it. My question is does anyone know of a part number for the intake manifold to be able to bolt a 4 barrel carb on it. I want something with low end torque. It will be my occasional drive to work but mostly my mud bogging truck. I don't want to go tbi because I don't want electric fuel pump and a computer telling me what I can and can't do. I need some part numbers from someone with experience because the Internet is full of products that have horrible descriptions and just want to sell you crap. PLEASE HELP!

[davepl]

You'd rather have a carb tell you what you can't do? Because I don't know how violent a mud truck is, but if you're bouncing around much EFI has the advantage of it not uncovering the jets and so on.

I don't know if TBI requires a return-style fuel setup, but if not (or if you're willing to add it) I'd keep the TBI, honestly. Unless you are a super-wizard with carbs it will run better than a carb.

As for what intake, just go to Summit and look for a spread-bore manifold that matches your heads. Assuming they are vanilla oval port (but this isn't true of 502s and other late big blocks), something like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2161/overview/

Then you'll need a choke spring and and heat stove and keep the crossover in the head open to maintain driveability. Electric choke is probably easier, but harder to dial in.

[Dfowlerak]

Okay thanks I appreciate it. I do understand that TBI will be more stable with bumps and angles and all but I just like the ability to put parts in my truck and not have to convince my computer that what I'm doing is a good idea. Too temperamental if you ask me. There's definitely ways to squeeze a lot of power and torque out of a TBI but between computers, sensors, and governors, they just aren't for me. The only electronics I like in my rigs are ignition, oil pressure, tach, and headlights. Its purely out of preference and convenience for me to enjoy carbureted. Nothing like a fine tuned carb with timing set the way i like it and a Chevy block under the hood for me

[IIGW]

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

I'm about to be putting a 454 from a 94 Chevy suburban in my 72 chevy k10. !

awesome, congrats on a roller motor!

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

The concern I have is that the 454 is tbi. !

youshould have more concerns than just that

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

I have heard that you can just remove an adapter and slap a carburetor on and that will work but I was thinking about putting a Q jet on it. !

its easier to replace the intake with a new intake and carb

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

My question is does anyone know of a part number for the intake manifold to be able to bolt a 4 barrel carb on it. I want something with low end torque. It will be my occasional drive to work but mostly my mud bogging truck. !

edelbrock performer would be a good choice with a 650 edelbrock carb

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

I don't want to go tbi because I don't want electric fuel pump and a computer telling me what I can and can't do. !

well youre still going to have to, that roller motor is FI, which means it doesn have a fuel pump on it. So youll have to run an electric fuel pump no matter what, as there is no machined boss for it on late model blocks..

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

I need some part numbers from someone with experience because the Internet is full of products that have horrible descriptions and just want to sell you crap. PLEASE HELP!

summit.com, jegs.com, edelbrock, all have 1800 numbers you can call and talk to people who do this is everyday

[Dfowlerak]

IIGW how right you are. Kinda spaced the electric fuel pump part. I called summit and they gave me a decent list of parts to do the intake. I really like hearing everyone's input. Its really going to make this project easier. Another question I have is will my stock torque converter from my th350 and SBC work for the BBC? Its only got maybe 1500 miles on it at most along with the transmission I had rebuilt. I don't see why it wouldn't but curious if anyone has a definite answer who has more experience with the 454

[hugger6933]

Is it absolutely certain that the 94 model 454 was a roller? I've torn down some in that general year range and they were not. The vortec was intro'd in the next model year or two my memory is getting fuzzy on the model year stuff trying to keep track of it all. I do know if you unhook the timing wire and roll some timing into the rat it will wake that burb up before you pull it out. I have built several of those trucks with the 454 in the years in 3/4 and 1 tons and after I sold them I add some timing and the new owners thought I'd really done something to add some power. Jim

[IIGW]

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

will my stock torque converter work

yes. transfer your sbc flex plate to the bbc and its the exact same thing.

[davepl]

I don't want to divert the thread too badly but I did want to take issue with the notion that EFI is something that somehow limits you and that you then are forced to "have to convince my computer that what I'm doing is a good idea".

I can't think of what this would mean. I suppose if it had EGR and you ripped it off you might have to modify a bit somewhere, but in what case could you be doing the right thing and have EFI refuse to play along whereas a carb would work?

It seems more like its intimidating than technically limiting. And that's OK, I've never had an old TBI setup so it'd be new to me as well. Just don't throw the EFI away because it's a little mysterious and replace it with you might think of as a bolt-on box (a carb). The carb is WAY more complicated and there are way more things that can go wrong. The conventional wisdom is that "Oh, it's a carb, so I can fix it, but with EFI I couldn't". Yet when a complicated carb actually malfunctions in a non-obvious way they're more insidious to fix than EFI, particularly because EFI will half of the time tell you what's wrong to start with!

While many of us can tear down and rebuild a Holley, Q-Jets require more skill and experience. A properly turned Q-Jet runs as well as any EFI I've ever had, the only problem is that the only properly tuned Q-Jets I've seen were factory calibrated to their original application and still on it (ie: car with original engine and carb). Of course with the correct skills and knowledge that could be on any car, there just isn't as much Q-Jet knowledge out there as there used to be. A Holley will get you down the road, and are a great choice for the track, but as the factory demonstrated repeatedly unless you need more than 750-800cfm there are better choices.

With Cliff Ruggles backed up 6 months last I checked there does seem to be a demand though. He should hire an intern! More precisely, someone should apprentice with him so they can carry on the trade for the next generation...

[davepl]

Originally Posted by IIGW

yes. transfer your sbc flex plate to the bbc and its the exact same thing.

I could be wrong, but I thought 454s were externally balanced and that all old small blocks other than the 400 were internally balanced.

Wouldn't that mean the flexplates are incompatible? You get the wrong counterweights on it and it will shake like a bastard and probably tear itself apart eventually.

Just a guess. Need someone with more engine knowledge to jump in.

[71duck]

Yep if you put a sbc plate on a BBC you wont be balanced. Don't do it unless you have an internal balanced BBC crank. You can get.

[71duck]

'm about to be putting a 454 from a 94 Chevy suburban in my 72 chevy k10. To help this guy out for starters the fire wall will need to be..."persuaded" back I just put mine in last week and if you want to dream about getting your valve covers off the wall needs to move. Im also putting in a 700r4. So if you ever plan on this. Drill your engine mount holes 1.75in more forward so you wont have to move everything back. My last thing to do is move the axle back.....what fun. But good luck

[hugger6933]

Please for the sake of all things orange, get the right flywheel to save yourself some trouble and maybe a motor problem. The small block [exception being the 400] are internal balanced. The 454 is a external balanced motor and it has a weighted flywheel.The lack of the flywheel weight if you put the small block flywheel on there will be quite noticeable and just plain frustrating when you have to either remove the motor or the trans to replace the flywheel. Jim

[Dfowlerak]

I will use the BBC flywheel. I hadn't even considered using the SBC one.

[Dfowlerak]

71duck can you post pics of your setup for my reference?

[MARKDTN]

Originally Posted by davepl

I don't want to divert the thread too badly but I did want to take issue with the notion that EFI is something that somehow limits you and that you then are forced to "have to convince my computer that what I'm doing is a good idea".

I can't think of what this would mean. I suppose if it had EGR and you ripped it off you might have to modify a bit somewhere, but in what case could you be doing the right thing and have EFI refuse to play along whereas a carb would work?

It seems more like its intimidating than technically limiting. And that's OK, I've never had an old TBI setup so it'd be new to me as well. Just don't throw the EFI away because it's a little mysterious and replace it with you might think of as a bolt-on box (a carb). The carb is WAY more complicated and there are way more things that can go wrong. The conventional wisdom is that "Oh, it's a carb, so I can fix it, but with EFI I couldn't". Yet when a complicated carb actually malfunctions in a non-obvious way they're more insidious to fix than EFI, particularly because EFI will half of the time tell you what's wrong to start with!

While many of us can tear down and rebuild a Holley, Q-Jets require more skill and experience. A properly turned Q-Jet runs as well as any EFI I've ever had, the only problem is that the only properly tuned Q-Jets I've seen were factory calibrated to their original application and still on it (ie: car with original engine and carb). Of course with the correct skills and knowledge that could be on any car, there just isn't as much Q-Jet knowledge out there as there used to be. A Holley will get you down the road, and are a great choice for the track, but as the factory demonstrated repeatedly unless you need more than 750-800cfm there are better choices.

With Cliff Ruggles backed up 6 months last I checked there does seem to be a demand though. He should hire an intern! More precisely, someone should apprentice with him so they can carry on the trade for the next generation...

I agree. TBI is very simple and very reliable. If you have the donor truck, you have the harness and computer already. If you don't, they are relatively inexpensive. Don't throw away the TBI because you don't understand it. Many crawlers and boggers are going away from carbs and to FI because it just works better.

[57taskforce]

On my '57 I ditched the throttle body injection that came on the 350 I put in it. I regret that everyday. The 600cfm edelbrock carb runs ok, but I've had to tune and re-jet it to get it to run right. I had access to the wiring and computer so It would have been easier just to get some 02 bungs and sensors and left the efi alone. Just my opinion

[Dfowlerak]

I will have the entire suburban so nothing will be missing so i have everything to retain the TBI. I just haven't decided if I want it or not yet.

[no1udknow]

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

I will have the entire suburban so nothing will be missing so i have everything to retain the TBI. I just haven't decided if I want it or not yet.

with the right software, or aftermarket brain box, I think there is more that can be done with the EFI system than a carburetor. All automotive carburetor systems are fixed venturi, with fixed jet sizes. Although the TBI does have a fixed venturi, it adjusts fuel input based on ambient air pressure, oxygen levels etc. Although most carbs can handle the range of altitudes and air temps you throw at them, TBI can do it better. As far as limits set against you by the TBI, those are only imposed by a stock brain box. You can easily buy a tunable, or aftermarket ECU and remove things like rev limiters and such, and if it is tunable, what is the cost of having your carburetor professionally tuned?? Most tuners/programmers are under $500.(sounds expensive but it's not if you consider tuning your carb more than once) as far as tuning goes, check out this link, there is a lot of info---> http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/g...-software.html

[no1udknow]

Originally Posted by davepl

You'd rather have a carb tell you what you can't do? Because I don't know how violent a mud truck is, .

Davepl is right on that too, I have a buddy with a 70's yota, and we went wheeling and got down into a ravine and his truck would not climb out. as he would try and climb the hill it would stall from lack of fuel. He tried pinning it and getting a run at it etc etc, he ended up popping out the front drive line and we ended up winching him up the side of the mountain. I believe he is now running a 22R-E out of an 89 yota.

[Dfowlerak]

So if I was to add a cam and lifters I would have to reprogram the computer to make it work right?

[no1udknow]

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

So if I was to add a cam and lifters I would have to reprogram the computer to make it work right?

possibly, depends on how radical you get. The TbI should adjust itself if it is closed loop. I.E. if you have o2 sensors on the exhaust, and you put in a cam which allows the valve to stay open longer, letting more air in to the cylinder, the o2 sensor in the exhaust should see that it is running lean and therefore add more fuel..... to an extent. If you are running such a radical cam that you need more fuel than the mapping can provide you will either need to reprogram, or install larger injectors/foggers (which is a lot easier on a TBI than a TPI because on the TBI the injectors are right under the air cleaner in plain view)

[Dfowlerak]

That makes sense. I just don't want to fight a computer to get something I know is okay to work. I'll just see how this project goes and I'll fill you guys in in a few weeks when I do the swap

[WIDESIDE72]

Originally Posted by 71duck

'm about to be putting a 454 from a 94 Chevy suburban in my 72 chevy k10. To help this guy out for starters the fire wall will need to be..."persuaded" back I just put mine in last week and if you want to dream about getting your valve covers off the wall needs to move. Im also putting in a 700r4. So if you ever plan on this. Drill your engine mount holes 1.75in more forward so you wont have to move everything back. My last thing to do is move the axle back.....what fun. But good luck

Did you use big block stands? I have a 70 with the original 402 and upgraded hei and no clearance issues. (?)

[Dfowlerak]

No I'm sure he's right. Its cramped back there even with the 350 I have in mine right now. I have an hei distributor and its a super tight squeeze. Tightening the cap screws are a pain and getting the distributor in and out it is annoying because of the firewall bubble its in

[davepl]

Originally Posted by Dfowlerak

So if I was to add a cam and lifters I would have to reprogram the computer to make it work right?

Well, if you didn't, your EFI would not be properly calibrated.

And if you had a carb on it, your carb would not be properly calibrated. That's why you'll find multiple different Q-Jets listed in the parts book for a 350 Camaro. Depends on the cam, the intake, the compression, which exhaust, and so on.

Either way the right way to do it would be to get it on a dyno with a 4-gas analyzer and tune it. I don't go that wild, but I do put O2 bungs in my carb'd cars so I can stick a wideband on it and and least do my crude version of calibrating. But I only play with jets and rods, I'm not in there drilling out air bleeds and so on. Some people can.

The difference is people don't recalibrate the carb. They two-foot the brake when it's cold, put up with bogging, all of that.

If it's EFI, they blame EFI. If it's a carb, that's just life.