Big Block Short Bed 71

[davepl]

On eBay. Not mine, not vouching for it. Says numbers matching, which is impossible. Casting code match maybe.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181532556281...:SS:SS:US:3160

[WILLNIK]

VIN plate has been re-attached with round rivets. Not saying its not numbers matching, but it has the wrong rivets.

[trkfrk]

It's a great looking truck. I would make room for it in my garage..

[davepl]

Remember NONE of our trucks are numbers matching because there are no numbers on the engines. You can check the casting code and date but that will only rule out imposters; you can't confirm that an engine was original to a particular truck.

Odd that the VIN plate has been remounted and still has paint on it. If you remove it, why put it back on before painting? And if the paint was from a previous job, clean it up when you have it off. Still never understand why anyone would take one off though.

The VIN on the SPID looks a little wonky to me but they sometimes do. The '6' is rotated and based on the last chain printer I've seen that'd be unlikely (can't say impossible).

I'm getting mighty tired of parts store batteries and aluminum intakes on "fully restored" trucks though.

[70shortfleet]

The engines are stamped on the right front of the engine block and my 1970 CST had the original protecto plate and the number that was stamped on the engine block was also stamped on the protecto plate proving it was the original engine installed from the factory.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by 70shortfleet

The engines are stamped on the right front of the engine block and my 1970 CST had the original protecto plate and the number that was stamped on the engine block was also stamped on the protecto plate proving it was the original engine installed from the factory.

Well, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I suppose it's possible they started in 71.

Are you saying your block has actually part of the truck VIN or a factory sequence number? I've never seen a VIN. Or do you mean the three digit code like "TBZ"

[70shortfleet]

I am saying the numbers after the prefix that were stamped on the block were also stamped on the protecto plate and Dave your tilt column is done!

[davepl]

Cool! PM me whatever details I need to get it.

That's weird though. Mine says only TO42TTBG. That also puts the "bonus" numbers before the prefix, not after, on mine. Never seen a truck with anything that matched the VIN or a sequence number on the protecto or build sheet or VIN. Maybe one of the plants was set up to do it?

I don't want to get into conspiracy theories, but is there a remote chance one of the previous owners didn't know not to and restamped a block? If they followed the pattern for Chevelles and Camaros and so on that's what you'd get, but not normally in trucks.

[Coley]

Originally Posted by 70shortfleet

I am saying the numbers after the prefix that were stamped on the block were also stamped on the protecto plate and Dave your tilt column is done!

.....interesting, I've never heard or that or seen that in my experiences with these trucks and their engines through 1972.
That would be interesting to see 'up close and personal'...any pics?

I too have always believed that the engines can be matched to the year, model and trans....but not the actual discreet chassis.

Again....interesting.....and would be good to hear from a few of the experts here on the site about this.

Coley

[70shortfleet]

I don't have the truck anymore or I would post some pictures of the engine block stamp and the protecto plate to show you. It could have had some letters in there too, I can't remember. I can't be the only one with a protecto plate with the engine number stamped on it. The truck was sold to a leasing company in Fresno, Cali. and was built at the Fremont plant.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by 70shortfleet

I can't be the only one with a protecto plate with the engine number stamped on it.

You just might be :-) Actually it's not about whether the engine number is on the protecto plate, it's whether it has a number at all.

It's kind of moot at this point since the truck is gone, but it's a question we should know the answer to. I'm going with the botched restamp theory myself, but I have a hunch we'll never know.

Unless someone else has a big block with a VIN or sequence on it. This was a big issue for me because when I bought the truck from Jesse Masterblaster it was just the night before delivery when I found out the engine didn't "match". Thankfully the forum came to the rescue with the answer, but I was worried for a couple of hours.

[Bishops Trucks]

I have those same rivets on mine. It's never been off before. Must ne the year they started using them.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by Bishops Trucks

I have those same rivets on mine. It's never been off before. Must ne the year they started using them.

Someone with a newer vehicle will have to jump in, but I think your plate has been off before (you don't say how you know, I'm not calling you a liar of course, I've never met you).

Here's a 72, still has them. I think the rosette rivets lived on for quite some time. In some places they're original to even possess (at least while researching for this post I read about a raid in NJ where a jar of them was seized).

Probably the Corvette guys know the most about them, since they're the guys with a couple of hundred thousand dollars on the line sometimes.

[70shortfleet]

Originally Posted by davepl

Well, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I suppose it's possible they started in 71.

Are you saying your block has actually part of the truck VIN or a factory sequence number? I've never seen a VIN. Or do you mean the three digit code like "TBZ"

It wasn't the VIN it was the code like TBZ and my engine was a 350

[Bishops Trucks]

[QUOTE=davepl;6851683]Someone with a newer vehicle will have to jump in, but I think your plate has been off before (you don't say how you know, I'm not calling you a liar of course, I've never met you).

Well, for one, I don't lie! No need to, lying just gets you in trouble. My truck had one re-spray and there was over spray on the tag. The cab had never been disassembled (until I did it last fall). All the tags, numbers and markings match. Maybe it's a production plant issue or place of manufacturing. We may never know. None of us on this site (well maybe a couple do) knows everything there is to know about these trucks or the reasons why certain things are the way they are. We are all here to learn from each other.

[no1udknow]

I have a block out of a 76 in my truck apparently, and on the front of the block by the engine code, there is a partial vin stamped. It does not match my truck qhich was how I quickly figured out it was not the stock engine, but I thought it was interesting that it was stamped there. As far as the rivets go, unless a person got the truck from the factory, no one could vouch for wether or not their vin plate had been off. Most folks would not notice that they are not rosette rivets. But if your truck has plain rivets and you took it to a car guy, or even a legitimate auction, they would definitely call you out it. I can not say for other makes, but chevrolet started using rosette rivets in 1965. I always see paople say things like "they probably just ran out" or "thay probably just made a mistake when printing up the SPID". I highly doubt oubt that an auto maker would risk heavy fines along with and investigation that would likely result in more fines. If Q/A saw the wrong rivets, they would have been drilled out and replaced.

[Bishops Trucks]

Well I stand corrected. My posts are finished!

[FirstOwner69]

"Numbers Matching" can be defined a couple different ways depending upon how much info GM actually stamped and cast on the blocks, heads, etc. That varies, even with Corvettes. According NCRS, until December 1959 or January 1960, Corvette engines had the same limited info cast and stamped as our trucks do. After that, Corvettes had a "VIN derivative" stamped in 5/32" digits added at the St. Louis Corvette assembly plant. Therefore, for the early Vettes, NCRS considers numbers matching to mean that the casting numbers, pad stamps and dates are reasonable for the presumed production date of the car. According to the NCRS 1958-1960 Corvette Judging Manual dated 1998 that would mean that:
"The engine block casting date must precede the engine identification stamping date; generally, by no more than 2 weeks. The engine assembly stamped date code will normally precede the theoretical vehicle assembly date 10 days to eight weeks..."

It makes sense to me that this same logic would apply to these trucks... until GM added the "VIN derivative" sometime after 1972.

Based on a discussion I had with Chevrolet in 1969, my 69 3/4 ton with a 350 was made the second week of December, 1968. Below are pictures of my block numbers and Protect-O-Plate which indicate that my engine is correct for a 3/4 ton truck, proper dates (cast November 27,1968, and assembled November 30) and original per the Protect-O-Plate. You will also note that whoever stamped the pad substituted an I for one of the 1s. The pad should have read "V1130XD" to reflect a November 30th assembly. A fairly common mistake.

Hope this helps.
Jim

[leftybass209]

Originally Posted by FirstOwner69

"Numbers Matching" can be defined a couple different ways depending upon how much info GM actually stamped and cast on the blocks, heads, etc. That varies, even with Corvettes.

I love how you cited references and defined your term Numbers Matching and I'm not being facetious. Well stated.

Sorry I'm being intellectually geeky today.

[no1udknow]

I guess I wasn't supposed to post that deep of a satire. My apologies admins.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Bishops Trucks

Well, for one, I don't lie! No need to, lying just gets you in trouble. My truck had one re-spray and there was over spray on the tag. The cab had never been disassembled (until I did it last fall). All the tags, numbers and markings match. Maybe it's a production plant issue or place of manufacturing. We may never know. None of us on this site (well maybe a couple do) knows everything there is to know about these trucks or the reasons why certain things are the way they are. We are all here to learn from each other.

Not a production issue; the VIN tags were installed in one of the first trim operations after the bodies came down out of paint.

There is no way/reason for a VIN tag to have body color on it from the factory (...unless the factory had to make a repair in that local area before shipping and they weren't very careful).

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by no1udknow

As far as the rivets go, unless a person got the truck from the factory, no one could vouch for wether or not their vin plate had been off. Most folks would not notice that they are not rosette rivets. But if your truck has plain rivets and you took it to a car guy, or even a legitimate auction, they would definitely call you out it. I can not say for other makes, but chevrolet started using rosette rivets in 1965.

Pontiac started rosette rivets sometime during the 1965 model year as well. We have not been able to determine a breakpoint yet, as my September of 1964 built '65 GTO has round rivets.

Originally Posted by no1udknow

I always see paople say things like "they probably just ran out" or "thay probably just made a mistake when printing up the SPID". I highly doubt oubt that an auto maker would risk heavy fines along with and investigation that would likely result in more fines. If Q/A saw the wrong rivets, they would have been drilled out and replaced.

I agree; the whole "they probably just ran out" theory is a bit overplayed. There is no room for spontaneity on the assembly line because of the complex set of production and regulatory issues.

The wrong rivets would never have made it to that assembly station. Rosette rivets were portioned out based on the day's production and the unused rivets were returned and accounted for at the end of the day.

K

[no1udknow]

I just love the plethora of combined knowledge this site has. I for one do not know it all and enjoy learning stuff from you older guys. That's the only way we will ever keep these old beauties running, because you sure can't count on the 20 something fool behind the counter at the parts house these days.

[jocko]

My 2 cents, for whatever that's worth...

Concur wholeheartedly with FirstOwner, and I'll add a little.
As he outlined, the V113.... stamping on the protecto plate and the block should match to be "numbers matching".
The build sheet will only provide a way to DISprove engine matching number status. Note that only the 3 digit code for the engine is included on the build sheet - and several vehicles would have been manufactured with this 3-digit code (TBC on the attached build sheet), including the truck in question, again if it is numbers matching. So, presence of a build sheet with a 3-digit code that matches the stamping of your engine means it COULD be a correct motor, but doesn't prove it is. It just enhances the chance it is correct. But if the 3 digit code does NOT match between build sheet and engine block, then you KNOW it is not original.
The protecto plate, as FirstOwner posted, further narrows the field toward certainty. Or, at least as certain as you can be without the actual VIN being stamped on the block, which, as was pointed out, didn't occur until later.

so, in 67-72 trucks, my pecking order goes like this for engine originality:

Best case: Protecto-Plate in hand that matches the VIN and that code matches the one stamped on the block pad PLUS build sheet in hand with matching 3-digit code on the block casting.

2nd Best case: Protecto Plate in hand and matching, but no build sheet (I'd personally still call this "numbers matching" as the Protecto Plate is more discriminating than the Build Sheet).

3rd Best case: Missing protecto plate, but you have the build sheet and the 3-digit code matches. In this particular case, all I could honestly say, as a seller is that the engine COULD be correct. At this point, I would begin to reference the engine build date, etc to narrow down the possibility of the engine in question being in the truck - if dates are kosher, it could honestly be called "date-correct, possibly original motor". So, let's say someone dropped in an "era correct" 72 350 in their 72 - it could possibly have an engine build date on the block that occurred after the assembly date of the truck - proving it was not the original engine... If the engine were assembled before the truck assembly date, then it could be original. Etc etc.

If none of the above 3 are present, then it can't be PROVEN to be the original engine.
If any of the above are present and NOT matching, then it's not the original engine.

So, having only the build sheet doesn't prove correct engine, only the possibility of it. However, if I were buying one of these trucks, I'd be happy if the 3 digit code on the build sheet matched - even if the protecto plate were missing. These things weren't bought as collector vehicles in 67-72, they were purchased as trucks and as they changed hands over the years, it's a miracle any protecto-plates survived. If you have the pp and build sheet, you are a lucky owner - and that's the only way to really call something a verified numbers matching vehicle.

In other words, when you run out of ways to DISprove an engine is original, it's original. In later years it became possible to positively confirm lineage without any paperwork when the VINs were added to the blocks. Boy, wouldn't that have been nice!?

[One Chevy Scotty]

I am not an expert in all things, but the SPID tag reads L47 400 CU Inch V8 Engine.....I thought that 400 Cubes was still a SMALL block?

Have I been wrong all these years?

I thought that big blocks were 396, 409, 427, 454....??