Best setup for a daily driver

[PGSigns]

Many of us have our trucks with a similar setup as what I have in my truck. It is a 66 long fleet with a crate 350 and a 4L60. Front has 73 to 87 swap with 2" springs, 2 1/2" drop spindles and the 1" sway bar. Rear has 4" springs and a 1" block. Rear has the short adjustable panhard bar. Shocks front and rear are KYB's and no relocators. Power steering and brakes with the master cylinder and proportioning valve from an 88 and up 1500. Now the question is for the suspension guys is where can we make improvements in our daily drivers to make them not only more fun to drive but also improve ride quality since our butts are in them every day. My thoughts are the improvements would be in a longer rear panhard bar and shocks and shock locations. And what about tuning the brake balance to the truck?
Jimmy

[Dan@Hotchkis]

Shocks and spring rates are going to be your number one culprit for poor ride quality. Most parts store shocks shy of Bilstiens are barely better than stock and if you have altered the spring rates, the imbalance can be even more obvious. A lot of adjustable shocks that have hit the market in recent time are great for drivers being able to dial in their ride, however a lot of these shocks use a very wide range of valving and have components that "cross talk" between the rebound and compression. When you get into a tuned shock like we offer, the vehicles weight and our spring rates have been designed to work as a package. We are leading the market on shock tuning, using track time, shock dynos and shaker rigs to develop a truly tuned package for the "bolt on" enthusiast. We have a post on this forum that has a video highlighting the process we go through on a Chevelle.

[PGSigns]

Dan I read the post on the shocks and the testing and it was very good. They looked like they were very well tuned to the complete Hotchkis system that was under the car. Where I am trying to go with this thread is may of us have just stock stuff under our trucks and not the 6K and up systems. I ran drag cars for may years and worked a lot with adjustable shocks and the ones with the electronic valving. Running cars in the low7's at more than 190 mph so I have a good understanding of working with high end shocks. When it comes to the trucks like mine there are a lot of things you can do in the make it handle thread and I did the caster mod to be able to get 5 degrees of caster with the 1 1/2" of rake in the truck. With all the reading and searching I have done I have not found where someone has looked at what works well as a next step for the level of mods that many here have and taken in the fact that the largest part of the market is the guys who want better than stock and just don't need a set of Fox shocks.
Jimmy

[Lee H]

Jimmy, On my 72 C10 DD I'm running 2 1/2" drop spindles and 1" drop springs in front, 4 inch drop springs in the rear. I tried CPP, KYB, & Monroe shocks and never did a good ride quality. Always choppy, harsh, speed bump bottoming out, etc. I was talking with the guys from RCD (racecardynamics.com) about another vehicle and got to discussing my C10's ride. He suggested shock relocaters and Bilsteins. I did and the ride is way better than I ever dreamed it could be. Most folks riding with me comment on the firm yet smoothness of the ride. Not cheap but well worth it IMHO. Lee

Bilsteins for my application from Race Car Dynamics part numbers are:
Front RCD-55-R033
Rear RCD-55-R034

Many vendors carry these part numbers and I've seen a few group buys.

[Dan@Hotchkis]

A great point Lee. If you look at our pictures, we used to use RCD shocks for our package, but decided it didn't have enough control, as evident in our shock video.

PGSigns, I under stand what you are saying. One thing I would point out is that you don't have to run our full system to take advantage of our shocks. The shocks alone would drastically improve the ride quality. If you start to put together the bare bones of the package, springs and sway bars, you'll come out with a very well balanced package. Either way, sounds like you are on your way to a pretty well driving vehicle.
Once folks get the suspension settled, the steering and tires usually become the next issue. Once you tighten up one bit, the shortcomings of the rest of the components become much more obvious.

[PGSigns]

Lee looks the Bilsteins for a C10 are around $330 a set of four and that is ones for the stock ride height. And for me that is not bad. Have not seen a set for the lowered trucks and a shock re-locator to get them where they need to be yet. But this thread may bring out some combos like yours that have worked out well. I also still use my truck as a truck and have hauled everything from a Harley Road king to a bunch of mulch. With a load it is easy to see how lacking the shocks are. Dan the quest for great handling like more HP in a race car can be a never ending deal if you let it get that way. Mine will never get to the point of starting to look at quick ratio boxes, light weight wheels and lower profile tires with a stiffer sidewall. A decent looking cruiser is all it will ever be.
Jimmy

[Lee H]

There are many web sites and youtube videos that detail how to measure for the correct shocks for any application. You can use the data you acquire to select Bilstiens' or any other shock you desire. Shock relocaters can be had from any forum vendor.

[Dan@Hotchkis]

Haha, I hear you PGSigns, my wife's current car was the same way. Started out as a nice cruiser, and then the hunny-do list each winter kept progressing the suspension to more and more trick pieces. This last round was bumping her front spring rate and quickening up her power steering. She's super happy with the car (it's her daily driver/kid hauler) and she's even quicker on the autocross track. Hopefully she doesn't get the speed bug next....

[KMC3420]

Subscribed. Dan and Lee H, what about the Hotchkis top relocating shock bracket, is that ran with a drop shock or a stock height shock, from pictures I have looked at, it appears the inner fender can be ran as well. Also is this the type of Bilstein you are speaking of, I have never messed with adjustable shocks. Can just the shocks and relocating bracket be ran by themselves as an upgrade?
Article: http://www.truckinweb.com/tech/suspe...y_c10_buildup/

[Dan@Hotchkis]

The bracket you see allows us to run a standard length shock. Also of note, if you already have that bracket, the new Fox's will bolt right in as a replacement to the Bilstein. We offer a non-adjustable Fox as well for the set it and forget it folks. Both shocks have the same valving, however the adjustables have that last little bit of fine tuning available for those that think they need it.

[KMC3420]

So Dan, your opinion may be bias, but would it be worth it to get just the shock relocation bracket, and either the Bilsteins or Fox shock, whichever would be more affordable and run it with the stock lower control arm? Reason I ask is my hole for my front upper shock mount was enlarged and the previous owner welded the shock stud to the frame. I am looking to change this and the above picture appears to be a perfect solution.

[Dan@Hotchkis]

Generally speaking a shock with a longer stroke is preferred so that you get a full range of motion. If you give our sales guys a buzz, they should be able to get you just the brackets.

Our kit is designed to be modular, so you can do bits in chunks instead of the whole kit at once. The price breaks down the same either way you do it.

[KMC3420]

Thanks Dan for the info, now Jimmy, I will get this thread back on track and hopefully offer something budget friendly later on but I for sure would like to see this thread be helpful as much as the make it handle thread is.

[DaHos]

Originally Posted by Dan@Hotchkis

The bracket you see allows us to run a standard length shock. Also of note, if you already have that bracket, the new Fox's will bolt right in as a replacement to the Bilstein. We offer a non-adjustable Fox as well for the set it and forget it folks. Both shocks have the same valving, however the adjustables have that last little bit of fine tuning available for those that think they need it.

Is that with your 2" springs? Id assume a drop shock is required for the 4" Hotchkis springs?

Hijack over

[PGSigns]

KMC3420 thanks for chiming in. I asked the question in the beginning about what shocks and shock locations. Just like anything else there are a 100 ways of doing things. Just about everyone makes shock relocation brackets. They all put there own spin on them. I think what brackets you use can affect the shock choice. It is easy to find a shock to go between any two points and get it to match the mounting hardware but its a crap shoot on the valving for the shock you pick. On the front of the truck from what I can see most brackets just get the lower part of the shock out of the bind they are in if you don't move the top but on the rear of the trucks the designs vary a good bit. I have a set of Early Classics brackets for the rear and have yet to pick a shock. Kind of the reason for this thread. The no limit and porterbuilt brackets are both other schools of thought on the same issue. This is where Dan can help. How does the angle and placement of all these designs affect the damping? Could a shock that works well with one set of brackets not work so well with another set that puts them in a different position? Dan best of luck with the wife. If you have her running the car on the auto cross and she starts to want to do better your going to need more power.
Jimmy

[Dan@Hotchkis]

Yes, there is a rate of diminishing returns the more the shock is angled back. Once you have a shock down to 45*, you've cut the resistance down by half. The more upright the shock is, the better. That is where a tuned package like ours come into play vs. a "hey this fits; lets sell that one" approach. Anything under 10* isn't terrible(correction factor of .95 or less) but once you get over that, you have to do some math.

[SCOTI]

This is the main reason I utilize shocks that are built for a C10 & move the mounting locations as required to obtain close to optimum travel.

[PGSigns]

Scotti I can see where that works easily for the front as most brackets allow the use of a stock length. On the back you end up going to what most folks call a drop shock. Even if you correct the angle the stock shock is going to be to long. Dan I looked on your site to see what shocks you offer for the trucks and it looks like over a grand for the shocks and the brackets. That is for the Fox shocks. The Bilsteins are not listed. Do you offer them? If so how is the tuning compared to the stock 4600's that Bilstein makes for the trucks?
Jimmy

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by PGSigns

Scotti I can see where that works easily for the front as most brackets allow the use of a stock length. On the back you end up going to what most folks call a drop shock. Even if you correct the angle the stock shock is going to be to long. Dan I looked on your site to see what shocks you offer for the trucks and it looks like over a grand for the shocks and the brackets. That is for the Fox shocks. The Bilsteins are not listed. Do you offer them? If so how is the tuning compared to the stock 4600's that Bilstein makes for the trucks?
Jimmy

I tweak the rear brackets to regain travel as well as help correct the angle. On truck arm set-ups, I use lowering blocks since they yield drop w/o compromising shock travel.

[PGSigns]

Most trucks seem to end up with a 3 or a 4" spring and others a spring and a block. I could not find the specs on the Bilstein 24-002486 that they list as the rear shock for the C10. Was going to see what its center of travel length was. Wile looking for the specs I see this is also the front shock for the early Toyota land cruiser.
Jimmy

[NEWFISHER]

Just my opinion and observation on rigs I have built for the street: Shocks perform best at nearly vertical or like Dan mentioned, less than 10 degrees. Anytime I have changed the suspension ( lower ) and driven the vehicle without changing the shock location, it's harsh and bouncy. Simply installing front and rear shock relocation brackets ( bought them , fabbed them and scoured the wrecking yards for them--think F350 front) will greatly improve the ride by allowing the shock to work at an angle it was designed for. My 65 was HORRIBLE using just some simple rear relocators until I also relocated the fronts and then it drove like a caddy.

[Dan@Hotchkis]

Originally Posted by PGSigns

Dan I looked on your site to see what shocks you offer for the trucks and it looks like over a grand for the shocks and the brackets. That is for the Fox shocks. The Bilsteins are not listed. Do you offer them? If so how is the tuning compared to the stock 4600's that Bilstein makes for the trucks?
Jimmy

For the Fox units, you're looking at $690 if you go through Summit. We no longer stock the Bilstiens.

[PGSigns]

Dan thanks for the info. I know they are very good shocks but if i told my wife i spent $690 on a set of shocks for the old truck I would be sleeping out side with the cat. For these trucks setup like mine a $300 set of shocks is OK for me but still the most expensive thing under the truck. Since you don't carry them any more can you let us know what shock you were selling?
Jimmy

[PGSigns]

I guys can post what they are running and what thier setup is along with what they think of the ride quality that would be good.
Jimmy

[Dan@Hotchkis]

Originally Posted by PGSigns

Dan thanks for the info. I know they are very good shocks but if i told my wife i spent $690 on a set of shocks for the old truck I would be sleeping out side with the cat. For these trucks setup like mine a $300 set of shocks is OK for me but still the most expensive thing under the truck. Since you don't carry them any more can you let us know what shock you were selling?
Jimmy

I don't have any of the old data, sorry. Call RCD and tell them the application, they should be able to help.