Does this steering look right?

[americanmusc1e]

It seems that one wheel turns sharper than the other. The front axle is a 10-bolt off of a 84 K10. the gearbox is from the same 84 K10.

full lock right..


full lock left..

[junksaver]

Your drag link may need to be adjusted. If it is adjusted too long or too short it will cause steering problems.

[andrewmp6]

Check the steering stop bolts on the back side of the knuckles also.

[franken]

Looks like not enough turn on the right side, but it's normal for the inside tire to be turned more since in has a smaller turning radius.
Are those lift blocks under the front springs?

[andrewmp6]

How big of a lift do you have on it ?

[special-K]

How is it aligned when pointed straight? If your toe is adjusted "out" too far then the outer wheel will not be turned enough and the inner wheel will be turned too far, either way you turn.

If the steering isn't centered after a lift, both wheels will turn sharper in one direction and not enough in the other. The wheels need to be pointed straight ahead with steering wheel making same turns in both directions. Adjustment is in the drag link.

If either or both arms are bent* in the knuckle(s) where the tie rod ends bolt, you will have a toed out situation and truck won't want to drive straight. The inner wheel will be turning too far and inner not enough (if both bent). If one is bent, that wheel will turn sharper when to inside. If damage was recent, you may be able to see surface rust flaked off or other signs of "stretching"

*Actually "straightened out" from it's naturally bent position is what I've seen.

[americanmusc1e]

Originally Posted by special-K

How is it aligned when pointed straight? If your toe is adjusted "out" too far then the outer wheel will not be turned enough and the inner wheel will be turned too far, either way you turn.

If the steering isn't centered after a lift, both wheels will turn sharper in one direction and not enough in the other. The wheels need to be pointed straight ahead with steering wheel making same turns in both directions. Adjustment is in the drag link.

If either or both arms are bent* in the knuckle(s) where the tie rod ends bolt, you will have a toed out situation and truck won't want to drive straight. The inner wheel will be turning too far and inner not enough (if both bent). If one is bent, that wheel will turn sharper when to inside. If damage was recent, you may be able to see surface rust flaked off or other signs of "stretching"

*Actually "straightened out" from it's naturally bent position is what I've seen.

The truck is two hours away from me right now. I'll do some measuring when I get back home. I have a set of toe plates so i should be able to get a pretty good measurement

[americanmusc1e]

Originally Posted by andrewmp6

How big of a lift do you have on it ?

Originally Posted by franken

Looks like not enough turn on the right side, but it's normal for the inside tire to be turned more since in has a smaller turning radius.
Are those lift blocks under the front springs?

My front lift is a bit oddball because it was nearly free. After I put everything together I realized my caster is quite different than stock and it may just not work on the street.

4" procomp 73-87 springs -- They are 2" longer eye-to-eye than a 67-72 spring

1" zero-rate blocks to center the axle back in the wheel well http://diy4x.com/cart/index.php?rout...product_id=128

6" HD shackles to make sure the longer spring doesn't hit the frame. http://diy4x.com/cart/index.php?rout...product_id=137


The rear lift is a stock set of 73-87 1/2ton springs with a 4" shackle flip and a set of 1" zero-rate blocks.

This is the best shot I have of it at the moment

[ryanroo]

we are seeing Ackerman angle. perfectly normal. the steering knuckles are designed to put the inside wheel at a steeper steering angle. if both wheels turned at the same angle they would fight each other in turns. trying to follow the exact same radius. this gives the inside tire a tighter radius.

given the combo of parts in the lift i am guessing you have more positive caster than OE as well. that will make the affect more dramatic due to the tire lean out on the inside. that is also made more apparent by the increased scrub radius caused by the wider wheels with more offset.

anyhow, the effect is designed into the axle for valid reason. i dont think you have any mechanical failures.

[Oldtruckfanatic]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acker...ering_geometry +1

[special-K]

Originally Posted by ryanroo

we are seeing Ackerman angle. perfectly normal. the steering knuckles are designed to put the inside wheel at a steeper steering angle. if both wheels turned at the same angle they would fight each other in turns. trying to follow the exact same radius. this gives the inside tire a tighter radius.

given the combo of parts in the lift i am guessing you have more positive caster than OE as well. that will make the affect more dramatic due to the tire lean out on the inside. that is also made more apparent by the increased scrub radius caused by the wider wheels with more offset.

anyhow, the effect is designed into the axle for valid reason. i dont think you have any mechanical failures.

That's what I was getting at. If straight ahead alignment is good, then this is normal. The wider wheels and tires dramatize the difference. At first I was thinking the first picture showed more turn on the inner wheel than in the second picture, but looking now, not so different.

Putting lift springs on these trucks has absolutely no effect on caster/camber. Think about it, you haven't changed a thing in the steering.

[americanmusc1e]

Originally Posted by special-K

That's what I was getting at. If straight ahead alignment is good, then this is normal. The wider wheels and tires dramatize the difference. At first I was thinking the first picture showed more turn on the inner wheel than in the second picture, but looking now, not so different.

Putting lift springs on these trucks has absolutely no effect on caster/camber. Think about it, you haven't changed a thing in the steering.

Normally that is true, but what i did changed the caster.

Here is why:

the 73-87 springs are 2" longer eye-to-eye. To keep things from rubbing i had to add longer shackles which rotates the spring out slightly. This was mostly countered by the fact that my shackles are not straight up and down because at rest the eyes are not vertical.

o o
| \
o o

Also, having the 1" recentering blocks on there to move the axle location 1' forward moves the block slightly into the curved part of the spring causing the block to not sit on the flat part and lean a little.

below is a very exaggerated, very crude drawing with what I'm talking about

EDIT: i realized looking at it now. In the bottom figure my shackle is leaning the other way than what the drawing shows due to using longer springs than factory

[ryanroo]

Originally Posted by special-K

That's what I was getting at. If straight ahead alignment is good, then this is normal. The wider wheels and tires dramatize the difference. At first I was thinking the first picture showed more turn on the inner wheel than in the second picture, but looking now, not so different.

Putting lift springs on these trucks has absolutely no effect on caster/camber. Think about it, you haven't changed a thing in the steering.

i have a very firm grasp on axle geometry, steering geometry, and suspension geometry.

putting lift springs on the truck, even springs designed for the model of truck they are installed on, and not a custom set up will alter the caster(effective) in certain circumstances.

caster is the angle of the imaginary line drawn through the upper and lower ball joint in relationship to the ground, assuming the ground is perfectly flat level surface.

this angle is pretty easy to change. lets say, for instance that the truck was designed to have a rake from the factory of 3 degrees. i dont know the exact OEM spec for that axle, but i know 10 bolts and 44s operate well in the 5-8 positive range. so, designed angle is 6 for example and the frame is angled down to the front 3. what if we installed a 2 inch spring to reduce the appearance of the factory rake. we have now made the frame level with the ground and the spring is designed to maintain an OEM relationship in regards to the steering geometry. but we didnt lift the rear so now the axle has 3 extra degrees of caster simply from installing a lift spring. add longer shackles, extra positive caster. use a degree shim to fix the driveline angle. less positive caster.

there are a thousand ways to ruin the front caster angle. all you need to do is change the relationship of the perfectly level ground and the imaginary line drawn through the ball joints when viewed from the side. any change in the caster angle in regards to the ground changes the effective caster angle. you can really see this if you have access to an alignment rack and play around a little. just having smaller diameter tires front to rear will alter the caster angle to some degree.

i agree, camber is much more difficult to change in these axles, and if you are changing it odds are it was because you did something bad. but caster and camber are totally different and don't necessarily have to affect one another.

my first post explains exactly why the we see the affect we do in the photos. caster changed due to the springs and shackles, and ackerman angle.

[special-K]

Just posting to help Josh here, not prove what I know or what anyone else may or may not know. What my last post did was get a response from him that gives new factors to help better understand his unique situation.
I'd guess your axle being rolled is causing the abnormal situation that you suspected. I'd want to try to correct that roll to it's original position.

[americanmusc1e]

Thanks everyone for their input. I have no intention of starting a war on who knows what. I should have been more clear when I said I had a different caster angle than stock.

I do have the tools to somewhat accurately measure caster and toe. They are with me in austin. I'm going down today to work on the truck and I'll see what I get. I'd like to post the numbers here to see if the caster is even close enough to work on the street. I guess if it's not, I'll break down and buy a set of brand new front springs. The good thing about that is that I'll be able to take out the 1" relocating blocks that I don't really need for tire clearance. (Only used at the time for wheel locating)

[ryanroo]

Originally Posted by special-K

Just posting to help Josh here, not prove what I know or what anyone else may or may not know. What my last post did was get a response from him that gives new factors to help better understand his unique situation.
I'd guess your axle being rolled is causing the abnormal situation that you suspected. I'd want to try to correct that roll to it's original position.

i am certainly not trying to start a pissing match. just trying to make sure that Josh and anyone else who may have a similar circumstance or question has the info needed to understand and make their trucks function as well as possible. alignment angles are confusing enough. modifications only muddy the waters. i am just trying to make it as clear as possible for everyone.

i agree that attempting to get the caster in the designed spec would be best.

Originally Posted by americanmusc1e

Thanks everyone for their input. I have no intention of starting a war on who knows what. I should have been more clear when I said I had a different caster angle than stock.

I do have the tools to somewhat accurately measure caster and toe. They are with me in austin. I'm going down today to work on the truck and I'll see what I get. I'd like to post the numbers here to see if the caster is even close enough to work on the street. I guess if it's not, I'll break down and buy a set of brand new front springs. The good thing about that is that I'll be able to take out the 1" relocating blocks that I don't really need for tire clearance. (Only used at the time for wheel locating)

caster is best in the OE range. some axles like more, some less. if you have to be out of spec, having it to far positive is generally better. it will affect the steering feel to the driver some with the wide tires. caster is generally not considered a tire wear alignment angle but with that wide of a tire/wheel and a lot of positive caster i bet you will see the outer edges wearing faster. i have had to much positive caster cause death wobble before, but not with that axle. i don't know if they have that tendency or not.

[mike69c10]

Did you move the spring perches after installing the lift to correct your pinion angle? When you installed the longer springs your housing rotated causing your caster to change.