700r4 swap... Used...

[Pistol Pete]

Good morning all! I wanted to start off saying two things 1) I am a new guy to this board, and 2) I am not near as mechanically inclined as most of you already here...so please take it easy on me!

I have a 350th right now and looking to swap it out for a 700r4...couple questions I have are
1) I can't afford a new one, so looking on the used market... Other than housing exterior cracks, are there any checks that I can do to make sure that a used tranny isn't shot?
2) I am pretty sure they have the same bolt pattern as the 350, is there anything tricky I need to know prior to doing this?

Any advise in both shopping and installation would be welcome.

Thanks in advance!

[57larry]

why not keep the turbo 350?

[Pistol Pete]

Highway speed I am over 3k at 70...the rear end is a 3:73 and it is almost painful driving it that 'fast'. Great to cruise in, don't get me wrong...

So I just want the OD I guess...I don't think mine is the kind you can put that coupler on to make it an OD 350

[MARKDTN]

You need to research this swap carefully. There are at least 3 things to be aware of.
1-you want an '89 up trans. They have an improved pump.
2-you will need to shorten your driveshaft, but the TH350 yoke is the same as a 700R4
3-do not even turn the engine over without hooking up and adjusting the TV cable.

[michael bustamante]

look into tv made ez. this is probably the easiest way to go for tv cables and linkage

[Pistol Pete]

Great, thanks for the help guys! Gives me a lot to think about ... What about just inspecting and buying a used tranny? Any pit-falls I need to look out for?(other than the year, thanks again MarkDTN)

[67 chevelle]

The 200 4r would be easier , you can use your existing driveshaft and yoke .. The 700 r4 requires cutting the driveshaft around 4 inches . If 700 r4s have a weak spot it is 3rd 4th gear drum sliping , common issue with these units , 4l60 , and 4l60e are the same

[SWB]

I have a 200-4R in my 72 and love it. It's the same length as the factory 350 turbo

[TobyArnot]

Originally Posted by 67 chevelle

The 200 4r would be easier , you can use your existing driveshaft and yoke .. The 700 r4 requires cutting the driveshaft around 4 inches . If 700 r4s have a weak spot it is 3rd 4th gear drum sliping , common issue with these units , 4l60 , and 4l60e are the same

I did the swap for a 2004R, but they are getting harder to find, especially with the Chevy bolt pattern. Also, there is a post on here recently about the minor issue with the bell-crank for the column shifter. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=500100 You would be wise to check out Bowtie Overdrive for the TV cable and the lock down switch. They are a fountain of info and I found them to be extremely helpful.

You will enjoy blowing by the /rice-rockets/ on the freeway.

[leftybass209]

Yes, there are some checks you could do, but they are all educated guesses. Regardless of being a 700r4 or 2004r, it would be wise to check the seals for leaks. A leaky transmission could have been running around town low on fluid. Check the mileage on the vehicle it's coming out of. Next, check if it had a tv cable hooked up. That's not always easy to do when others pull parts from the vehicle daily. Then drop the pan and swipe your finger along the bottom of it, and determine how much crud is there. You can also assess the vehicle itself. Was it hit, or in good condition? Vehicles that have body damage are more likely to have ran well and are in the junkyard due to the accident. A vehicle that has no damage likely had a mechanical issue, those are the ones you want to investigate further, especially if it had a gm overdrive trans because not many people understand them, and wind up running them set up wrong for years.

[zamboni2354]

if you want the speedometer to work get one with a mechanical speedo vs electronic or be prepared to spend a few bucks to convert it. Mine was electronic and I bought the parts to convert it to mechanical from bowtie overdrives for less than 100 bucks.

jeff

[SWB]

Originally Posted by TobyArnot

I did the swap for a 2004R, but they are getting harder to find, especially with the Chevy bolt pattern. Also, there is a post on here recently about the minor issue with the bell-crank for the column shifter. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=500100 You would be wise to check out Bowtie Overdrive for the TV cable and the lock down switch. They are a fountain of info and I found them to be extremely helpful.

You will enjoy blowing by the /rice-rockets/ on the freeway.

I agree, I put a 200-4R tranny in my 67 Chevy II pro-tour also, and Bowtie Overdrive makes a killer trans cross-member for the 67 Nova using a 200-4R. They know there stuff..

Steve

[Pistol Pete]

I haven't considered a 200 quite frankly because I don't know anything about it... The brief research that I just did sounds like it is a very probable replacement... But availability is questionable ?

[leftybass209]

The 2004r is similar but has differences. It is a bit more difficult to find because the 700r4 took over and became the 4l60e and carried on that lineage. The overall length is shorter and wouldn't likely require driveshaft modifications. It has a different 1st gearing than a 700, and it's subjective as to which you would prefer. In regards to power handling differences they are similar; the age and condition of the used trans would effect their power handling more than anything, and rebuilt they can handle much more power. Preference is really based on your end goals.

[MARKDTN]

Originally Posted by 67 chevelle

The 200 4r would be easier , you can use your existing driveshaft and yoke .. The 700 r4 requires cutting the driveshaft around 4 inches . If 700 r4s have a weak spot it is 3rd 4th gear drum sliping , common issue with these units , 4l60 , and 4l60e are the same

You have to ask yourself why GM never used a 200R4 behind anything bigger than a 307 Olds. No Corvettes, no big blocks, not even a 305 IROC. 200R4 was used in the Turbo Regals and GNs, but they don't last long there after engine mods. True, the GN was the highest performance application stock but in truth the 200R4 in stock form is not all that strong. They do require a rebuild to use much power or you will shatter the insides. If you are going to build the 200R4 first then fine, just don't yank a used one out and expect it to last in a truck. They were never used in a Corvette with the CrossFire (205HP/290 Torque) or TPI IROC (195HP/295 torque) which was about the same power as a stock GN (200HP/300 torque)-much less a 250HP TPI Corvette.

I'm not saying don't use a 200R4. I am saying that it might not last long if you take a used one out of a tired V6 or 305 A-Body and put it in a heavy truck with a 350/350 and trounce on it. I would do a 700R4. They got a bad reputation from early on, but if you get an '88 up core with the improved guts they last a long time. They also get a bad rap for swaps for people that didn't adjust the TV cable and burn them up fast. You should not start the engine until the TV cable is properly adjusted!! It is that important. The 4L60E that is still used today is a derivative of the 700R4 and they last a long time. I have one in my '01 Tahoe with 280K+ miles that has never been out. The 200R4 can be built to handle the power for sure, but a 700R4 can do it with a lot less mods. The current 4L60E shares some internals with some of the last 700R4 (4L60) transmissions.

As for a used one, look for leaks-especially the front seal. Check the oil and it should be red. If it is black or smells burnt then run away. If you can pull the pan, that would be even better. The less gunk in the bottom the better. Big shavings are definitely a bad sign. My thoughts on used parts like this is wrecked is good-it was moving when it was hit. Look for cracks and broken mounts though. Burnt is good usually unless it was very hot (no paint on the front end=OK, no interior left=no good for a transmission). No damage to vehicle-be wary! You can find parts to convert electric speedo ones to mechanical, or if you can find a mechanical one first that will save you some time. I think if I remember right Camaros, Vans, and Impalas are mechanical while trucks, Firebirds, and Corvettes are electronic speedo. Hope that helps.

[Pistol Pete]

Damn, those are some great points, thank you so much! This has clearly turned into a much tougher job than I was originally thinking... Cutting down the drive shaft, etc... Might have to put this project on the back burner until I can really dig a little more time and research.

Thank you all so much for the information, you have been great help!!!!

[BB72CHEVKT]

If you can afford to possibly do the swap twice due to getting a lemon the first time just get a rebuilt unit. I bought a used one that looked to have been a fresh rebuild only to pull it out and replace it after a couple of days. I have 25k+ miles on the rebuilt one with no problems.

[Fitz]

[QUOTE=MARKDTN;7026688]You have to ask yourself why GM never used a 200R4 behind anything bigger than a 307 Olds. No Corvettes, no big blocks, not even a 305 IROC. 200R4 was used in the Turbo Regals and GNs, but they don't last long there after engine mods.
QUOTE]

What a crock! You should at least do a little research before posting something as incorrect and misleading as this.

In 1980, for the 1981 model year, the 200-4R (sometimes called 200R4) was introduced for use in GM vehicles. Internally, the components which were prone to failure in the THM200 (used with the earlier 307 powered cars) were improved, and this transmission was used primarily with high-power applications — the Buick Grand National and the 1982 Chevy Corvette and, later, the 454 powered trucks. The 200-4R was configured with several different torque converters and gear ratios depending on the vehicle application. It is a strong and reliable transmission. Don't take my word for it. Read this article: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/transmi...mission-build/ Art Carr builds them for 1000 HP. when I was building my truck I had to choose between a well built 2004R or a TH400 backed by a gear vendors overdrive. I chose TH400/ Gear Vendors from JWR Transmissions because Johnny Winter was right down the street and Art Carr was 3000 miles away but either one would stand up to a ZZ572 on the bottle!
The gearing for the 200-4R is:
First - 2.7405404:1
Second - 1.567567:1
Third - 1.00:1
Fourth - 0.673913:1
Reverse - 2.07:1

[68K30]

[quote=Fitz;7026850]

Originally Posted by MARKDTN

You have to ask yourself why GM never used a 200R4 behind anything bigger than a 307 Olds. No Corvettes, no big blocks, not even a 305 IROC. 200R4 was used in the Turbo Regals and GNs, but they don't last long there after engine mods.
QUOTE]

What a crock! You should at least do a little research before posting something as incorrect and misleading as this.

In 1980, for the 1981 model year, the 200-4R (sometimes called 200R4) was introduced for use in GM vehicles. Internally, the components which were prone to failure in the THM200 (used with the earlier 307 powered cars) were improved, and this transmission was used primarily with high-power applications — the Buick Grand National and the 1982 Chevy Corvette and, later, the 454 powered trucks. The 200-4R was configured with several different torque converters and gear ratios depending on the vehicle application. It is a strong and reliable transmission. Don't take my word for it. Read this article: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/transmi...mission-build/ Art Carr builds them for 1000 HP. when I was building my truck I had to choose between a well built 2004R or a TH400 backed by a gear vendors overdrive. I chose TH400/ Gear Vendors from JWR Transmissions because Johnny Winter was right down the street and Art Carr was 3000 miles away but either one would stand up to a ZZ572 on the bottle!
The gearing for the 200-4R is:
First - 2.7405404:1
Second - 1.567567:1
Third - 1.00:1
Fourth - 0.673913:1
Reverse - 2.07:1

?

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by TobyArnot

I did the swap for a 2004R, but they are getting harder to find, especially with the Chevy bolt pattern. Also, there is a post on here recently about the minor issue with the bell-crank for the column shifter. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=500100 You would be wise to check out Bowtie Overdrive for the TV cable and the lock down switch. They are a fountain of info and I found them to be extremely helpful.

You will enjoy blowing by the /rice-rockets/ on the freeway.

Many 2004R's are multi-bolt pattern.

[MARKDTN]

[quote=Fitz;7026850]

Originally Posted by MARKDTN

You have to ask yourself why GM never used a 200R4 behind anything bigger than a 307 Olds. No Corvettes, no big blocks, not even a 305 IROC. 200R4 was used in the Turbo Regals and GNs, but they don't last long there after engine mods.
QUOTE]

What a crock! You should at least do a little research before posting something as incorrect and misleading as this.

In 1980, for the 1981 model year, the 200-4R (sometimes called 200R4) was introduced for use in GM vehicles. Internally, the components which were prone to failure in the THM200 (used with the earlier 307 powered cars) were improved, and this transmission was used primarily with high-power applications — the Buick Grand National and the 1982 Chevy Corvette and, later, the 454 powered trucks. The 200-4R was configured with several different torque converters and gear ratios depending on the vehicle application. It is a strong and reliable transmission. ...

I think you may want to do a bit of research yourself. Don't believe everything on Wikipedia(which is where your quote is from). Corvettes have never had a 200R4 ('82 Corvette only available with 700R4). Before that it was a TH350 (or TH400 or PowerGlide). 454 trucks never had a 200R4, pretty sure the SS454 truck had a 3-speed auto. I can find no application for a 200R4 behind even a 350, let alone a 454. I stand behind what I wrote.

Also, I never said a 200R4 wasn't strong when built. I said don't go buy a used one from a 305 MonteCarlo and expect it to live long if you trounce it. Please read my whole post before you trounce me. The OP wants a used trans. If I wanted overdrive and used trans it would be a 700R4. That is my opinion, it is worth what you paid for it.

[snipescastle2]

buying a used transmission is alot like "Russian Roulette" the person selling it, may have just changed the fluid prior to pulling it out and claim it's newly rebuilt, or well maintained, when in fact, it's not. better to find a good '89 up core and have it rebuilt, install the heavy duty sprags, 13 vane pump mod and hardened pump rings,etc... just to be on the safe side.....the added benefit of having the OD will thank your wallet and save some wear on your engine! I'm doing this right now myself, my 350TH linkage needs to be tweaked because it's too far away from the frame rail where the factory pivot bracket bolts to the frame. basically, I need to shim it out 3/4" to 1" to make sure the pivot won't come out of the trans linkage on acceleration, (not enough pivot pin engaging the trans bracket, see attached pictures)
your next issue is finding an "OD" selector lens for a non tilt column, I have yet to find one myself, but that's the least of your worries, as mention earlier, the "T.V. Cable" issue is a killer on these transmissions, not enough TV pressure will fry your trans before you even go around the block, too much will result in late, harsh shifts. they make adjustable TV cables and brackets for most carburetors. there is alo the geometry issue for the TV cable attachment point on the carburetor, Holley and Edelbrock are two different carbs, and each has it's own bracket to fix the cable geometry so the trans will shift correctly. HTH,
Ben

[Bigdav160]

The only thing you can do on a used trans is pull the pan. You'll want to do that anyway. The year of 700r4 doesn't bother me. There's nothing that can't be upgraded. If possible, don't get one from behind a 6 cylinder as the pressure regulator valve, servo, and another valve in the valve body (brain fart on which one) are the wrong size.

And I agree, the SS454 trucks had a TH400. The 1982 Vette had 700R4. The majority of 200-4R's were in bigger cars like the "B" bodies. I was a GM transmission tech in the 80's and 90's

[TobyArnot]

Originally Posted by snipescastle2

your next issue is finding an "OD" selector lens for a non tilt column, I have yet to find one myself

"As previously posted, Speedway sells a O/D indicator and bracket that is almost a direct fit". Only took a small amount of modifying to make it fit.

[WIDESIDE72]

I used a polar like mage kit in my past two 700r4 into 72 truck column shift swaps. Also, I have a 200r4 in my 79 Malibu. With a 383 I was running high 12 1/4s with no issues. It has a few upgrades but nothing exotic. I prefer the 200r4 1st gear since its not as low as th 700.

I wouldn't trust any used 200, 700r4 350 400 or otherwise trans these days unless there was major documentation.