If the push rod falls down out of sight do I have a hole in the lifter?

[Siedl]

Hi! I am just learning all this stuff so if I use incorrect terminology forgive me. I bought my first project truck back in March, it's a 72 short bed stepside. I recently enlisted the help of someone, who owns a muffler shop and claims to rebuild 350's to teach me how to do a valve adjustment. I felt confident in his expertise however never witnessed any of his rebuilt engines. Took his word.

His process for adjusting the valves was to bump the engine and follow this rule: adjust the exhaust valve at the end of the intake stroke and adjust the intake valve at the beginning of the exhaust stroke. Twist the rod and tighten nut until rod stops spinning then go a quarter turn more. He did one side at a time didn't bother with TDC or starting with no.1 cylinder.

It seemed to work, the loud popping stopped and I could drive it. I did notice however, it felt gritty, sandy when I drove it. The next day I got about 12 miles from my house before the loud popping was worse and undriveable. Had my mechanic friend come help and one of the push rods was broken, a piece completely broken off, and all but four push rods were cracked. My friend explained when doing a valve adjustment the spinning of the rod is incorrect and you should move the rod up and down to feel for lash. That prevents the rod from being to tight and potentially braking the (valve, lobe, lifter?? Can't remember but you know what I mean)

So, I bought 16 new push rods and when we went to put it in the cylinder that had the broken one it fell all the way down and had to use a telescoping magnet to get it out. That can't happen unless the rod pushed a hole through something right? I have a much bigger problem now, right? Is my engine dead now???

I managed to limp it home at least but am now left with a bigger mess then when I started and the truck is undriveable. It's possible the valves weren't adjusted completely that my friend merely got it running so I could make it home (he was late for work and pressed for time) but my gut tells me even if a got another valve adjustment done the correct way I would still have a problem.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions, please!!!

Thank you!!!
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[Jurassic-1]

The engine is probably OK. You likely popped the lifter out of the hole. I have been lucky enough to fish it back in place with a magnet. If you can not find it you will need to remove the intake. This is not too bad of a job. How did you adjust the lifters? I was wondering because you mentioned broken push rods. Hopefully there is not any Valve to Piston contact that caused the trouble.

[haysonj]

If it was mine I would pull the intake manifold and look at the lifters and if they are fine you can adjust the valves with the manifold off. As far as the pushrod falling in are you sure you had it on the lifter, I doubt you punched a hole in a lifter.

[Siedl]

Originally Posted by Jurassic-1

The engine is probably OK. You likely popped the lifter out of the hole. I have been lucky enough to fish it back in place with a magnet. If you can not find it you will need to remove the intake. This is not too bad of a job. How did you adjust the lifters? I was wondering because you mentioned broken push rods. Hopefully there is not any Valve to Piston contact that caused the trouble.

We didn't adjust the lifters. The person teaching me the valve adjustment just tightened the rocker nuts. If there is more to it, he didn't say or show. I don't think the lifter fell only because when we put the new rods in and turned on the engine to adjust the rockers that cylinder was moving. I can only assume that means the lifter was still in place. My friend that helped fix the mess was pretty confident that the other person tightened the rocker nuts to tight which caused all the damage. Yes there was only one broken rod but 11 others were badly cracked. His fear is valve damage on the the one with the broken rod.
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[Siedl]

Originally Posted by haysonj

If it was mine I would pull the intake manifold and look at the lifters and if they are fine you can adjust the valves with the manifold off. As far as the pushrod falling in are you sure you had it on the lifter, I doubt you punched a hole in a lifter.

Okay, I'll do that, take the manifold off and see.

I guess that was my question, is it possible, in a perfect engine, to drop a rod in and have it fall all the way out of sight? when I put the 15 other rods in I could feel two different "seats" for the rod one slightly forward and one slightly back. I put them slightly back, on the lifter I believe. On the broken one when I went to drop it in and find the right "seat" it dropped out of my hands and out of sight. To me, indicating a larger problem but am too inexperienced to know.
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[yuccales]

"How to rebuild your Small Block Chevy" by David Vizard is a good book with tons of info about our engines. Good luck on your project.

[volksworld]

we always adjusted them with the engine running...back off the nut till the lifter tapped, tighten it back up till the tick stopped, then the extra 1/4 turn...spewed oil all over the place,there were clips available that went on the rocker to cover the oil hole and limit the mess...sounds like your lifters werent pumped up all the way when "adjusted" and when they finally filled with oil they were too tight...you may have had a bent pushrod to begin with and tightening it up broke it....x2 on the lifter popping out of hole....think i'd pull the intake to make sure everythings ok ....maybe a couple lifters have lost the clip that holds them together and would allow them to over-extend...new lifters and pushrods are probably in order if you have the manifold off anyway

[special-K]

I agree that one lifter probably popped up and out of it's place. I would surely remove the intake to see what's what. You can do a static valve adjustment initially, and loose is better than tight. Then put it together and adjust with running. This adjustment at the rockers is the only adjustment for the valve train...push rods/lifters/rockers. Let it clatter, turn down till quiet and 1/4 turn more is good. Tighten very little at a time, slowly, and listen. I cut a valve cover out so I can adjust through. I never had any luck with those clips staying on...or preventing oil spray. You can lay a rag over the cylinders you aren't adjusting. I've done the valve cover two ways, cut above center so lower covers squirt holes and hole saw enough for socket at each rocker

[hamjet]

((((((to drop a rod in and have it fall all the way out of sight? ))))) Even if the lifter had popped out, the pushrod would have hit the cam lobe. it would be down 2"s but not out of site. you definately have something wrong, pull the dizzy and intake to really see whats going on. P.S., make sure you drain the coolant first....

[Siedl]

Originally Posted by special-K

I agree that one lifter probably popped up and out of it's place. I would surely remove the intake to see what's what. You can do a static valve adjustment initially, and loose is better than tight. Then put it together and adjust with running. This adjustment at the rockers is the only adjustment for the valve train...push rods/lifters/rockers. Let it clatter, turn down till quiet and 1/4 turn more is good. Tighten very little at a time, slowly, and listen. I cut a valve cover out so I can adjust through. I never had any luck with those clips staying on...or preventing oil spray. You can lay a rag over the cylinders you aren't adjusting. I've done the valve cover two ways, cut above center so lower covers squirt holes and hole saw enough for socket at each rocker

Love the modified valve cover idea! Thanks! We dumped a ton of oil when we put the new rods in and tried to adjust with the engine running. Also so glad the overall consensus is not doom! Thank you!
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[Davidf]

Back in my high school years when I was rebuilding small block GM and Ford engines (for a hobby), I always pre-adjusted the lifters by spinning the push rods between my fingers. When I felt resistance, I went a 1/4-1/2 turn tighter (can't remember which). But, I did not adjust initially to the point I could no longer spin the rod, just to the point I felt it tighten up. Usually meant no subsequent adjustment while running was necessary. But, if so, I also used an old set of valve covers with the top cut out.

[hamjet]

Heres what I did to a 348/409 valvecover to adjust while running...

[67 chevelle]

take your intake off ,,adjust valves,, replace , its mandatory at this point , you have to see whats going on inside , Id replace lifters while you are at it

[Siedl]

Originally Posted by hamjet

((((((to drop a rod in and have it fall all the way out of sight? ))))) Even if the lifter had popped out, the pushrod would have hit the cam lobe. it would be down 2"s but not out of site. you definately have something wrong, pull the dizzy and intake to really see whats going on. P.S., make sure you drain the coolant first....

That's what my common sense told me but as I'm reading through all these wonderful replies I'm not necessarily facing certain doom which is a plus. Thanks for the coolant tip, I already dumped a bunch bypassing the heater core for the first time (embarrassing!!)!
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[Siedl]

Originally Posted by hamjet

Heres what I did to a 348/409 valvecover to adjust while running...

Love it, thanks!
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[Siedl]

Originally Posted by Siedl

Love it, thanks!
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[Siedl]

Originally Posted by Davidf

Back in my high school years when I was rebuilding small block GM and Ford engines (for a hobby), I always pre-adjusted the lifters by spinning the push rods between my fingers. When I felt resistance, I went a 1/4-1/2 turn tighter (can't remember which). But, I did not adjust initially to the point I could no longer spin the rod, just to the point I felt it tighten up. Usually meant no subsequent adjustment while running was necessary. But, if so, I also used an old set of valve covers with the top cut out.

I'm curious how much of a difference in lash there is between stopping when you "feel resistance" and "stopping when it stops spinning"
Now that I've been through the process and understand a little more that seems very subjective and leaves a lot of room for error. Error that could potentially ruin your valves. (Not criticizing you just speaking as a novice that wishes she didn't do this!) even if we look in and see "fixable problems", the oil is full of metal from the chipping, cracking, and breaking and I HAD to drive it home about 17 miles. Obviously doing an oil change is mandatory but what's the potential harm that has all ready happened as a result? Can't think about that now. I'm gonna take the intake off, look around and adjust the valves correctly and go from there.
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[Siedl]

Originally Posted by 67 chevelle

take your intake off ,,adjust valves,, replace , its mandatory at this point , you have to see whats going on inside , Id replace lifters while you are at it

Will do, thanks!
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[geezer#99]

If you replace all the lifters, there's a good chance you'll flatten a lobe or two on your cam. The lobes and lifters are matched together now. Don't change that.

Here's a wiki on adjusting your lifters.
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...raulic_lifters

[Siedl]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

If you replace all the lifters, there's a good chance you'll flatten a lobe or two on your cam. The lobes and lifters are matched together now. Don't change that.

Here's a wiki on adjusting your lifters.
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...raulic_lifters

Thanks!
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[1malo68]

When new cams and lifters are installed in a new motor, they seat to each other. If you put new lifters on an old cam you run a big risk of flat spotting your cam. I've seen this happen a bunch of times. I always look at cam and lifters as one component...If you change cams, you should change lifters and if you change lifters, you should change cams so the components can seat to each other. It's more expensive but you will only do it once.
As far as adjustment for a hydraulic flat tappet valve train, In my opinion, the most reliable, one time, way to do it is: Soak the new lifters in oil overnight and put the #1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke. Spin the pushrod on the #1 Cylinder between your thumb and forefinger and tighten the adjuster nut until you BARELY feel a slight drag on the pushrod. Tighten the adjuster 1/2 turn and repeat for both the intake and exhaust valve on that cylinder. Rotate the crankshaft 1/4 turn and repeat the process on the #8 cylinder. As you complete each cylinder, rotate the crank 1/4 of a turn and do both valves on each one. 1/4 turn on the crankshaft brings the next cylinder to TDC on the compression stroke. The order will be 1, 8, 4, 3, 6, 5, 7, 2. You won't have oil slinging all over the place and you should never have to adjust them again. Just my $0.02.

[Norcal72]

I changed my lifters and pushrods without changing cam. I read many places it was ok to install new lifters on old cam. New cam with old lifters was a problem. That was 6k miles ago. I did use high zinc oil for breakin and first 500 miles. Maybe I got lucky.