Power steering frame damage fix

[scum1]

Ok guys, long story short I've had my truck for about 5 years now, the P/O did a power steering swap, and did not do it the correct way. Instead of an adapter plate they used nuts as spacers putting a lot of stress on the bolts. I noticed a lot of play in my steering, so i decided to take a closer look. i tried adjusting the allen nut on the box and it did nothing. Something seemed wrong. I took the box off and inspected everything. turns out the rag joint had about 75% of its teeth for the splines worn off. That was my problem, box is fine. BUT, i then noticed the crack in the frame. here are some pics, along with my plan of attack. Comments and advice from experience appreciated.

I ordered the adapter plate from captainfab, its on its way (thanks captainfab )

As far as the repair. i drilled 1/16th holes at the ends of the crack to prevent any further crackage. should i then,

a) cut a small bevel into the crack and weld IN/ALONG the crack from beginning to end ---------

b) perform more of a stitch weld going across the weld from one side of the crack to the other /\/\/\/\/\/\

the adapter plate will be "stitch" welded, not welded continuously, after repair.

[wcstory]

Actually you should take a grinder and "V" grove the area of the crack. Weld the crack pushing forward in a repetitive small "C" pattern. Begin your weld 1/2" before the crack and finish 1/2" after the crack ends. If possible weld it from both sides. If using a MIG I would choose CO2 gas for a deeper penetration or 7018 3/32 if stick

A stitch weld will not give you the consistent penetration you need to properly fuse the crack.

I would recommend welding Captain Fab's bracket in place to prevent future stress fractures.

[Boedean1981]

Also with above solution I would add a piece of steel on the inside of the frame to add stability. Just my thought.

[luvbowties]

Originally Posted by scum1

Ok guys, long story short I've had my truck for about 5 years now, the P/O did a power steering swap, and did not do it the correct way. Instead of an adapter plate they used nuts as spacers putting a lot of stress on the bolts. I noticed a lot of play in my steering, so i decided to take a closer look. i tried adjusting the allen nut on the box and it did nothing. Something seemed wrong. I took the box off and inspected everything. turns out the rag joint had about 75% of its teeth for the splines worn off. That was my problem, box is fine. BUT, i then noticed the crack in the frame. here are some pics, along with my plan of attack. Comments and advice from experience appreciated.

I ordered the adapter plate from captainfab, its on its way (thanks captainfab )

As far as the repair. i drilled 1/16th holes at the ends of the crack to prevent any further crackage. should i then,

a) cut a small bevel into the crack and weld IN/ALONG the crack from beginning to end ---------

b) perform more of a stitch weld going across the weld from one side of the crack to the other /\/\/\/\/\/\

the adapter plate will be "stitch" welded, not welded continuously, after repair.

Don't think I would do anything else until I could get CaptainFab to chime in--he, having designed the adapter, can give you excellent and top-notch advice. Plus looks like you have more issues than just that crack.
Sam

[scum1]

Originally Posted by wcstory

Actually you should take a grinder and "V" grove the area of the crack. Weld the crack pushing forward in a repetitive small "C" pattern. Begin your weld 1/2" before the crack and finish 1/2" after the crack ends. If possible weld it from both sides. If using a MIG I would choose CO2 gas for a deeper penetration or 7018 3/32 if stick

A stitch weld will not give you the consistent penetration you need to properly fuse the crack.

I would recommend welding Captain Fab's bracket in place to prevent future stress fractures.

Great advice. Thank you! I was under the impression that mig welding with flux core gave a hotter more penetrating weld than with co2. Is that not accurate? I have heard a debate or two in the past. In either case thanks for the advice, thats just what i was looking for.

[vince1]

I guess that is why they say to use the bracket with power steering. Should be a fun and easy fix though like has been said to V it out and weld. I'd crank up the volts a bit on the MIG. The brackets will show how much you have to grind smooth so the weld doesn't interfere. I find those red 40 grit sandpaper discs work faster than a grinder. The bracket will probably cover the hole so probably it won't be necessary to restore it. I would not weld in the bracket because I don't think it is necessary and too hard to remove later for whatever reason comes along. When that frame is sandwiched between the brackets nothing is going to move.

[scum1]

Originally Posted by vince1

I guess that is why they say to use the bracket with power steering. Should be a fun and easy fix though like has been said to V it out and weld. I'd crank up the volts a bit on the MIG. The brackets will show how much you have to grind smooth so the weld doesn't interfere. I find those red 40 grit sandpaper discs work faster than a grinder. The bracket will probably cover the hole so probably it won't be necessary to restore it. I would not weld in the bracket because I don't think it is necessary and too hard to remove later for whatever reason comes along. When that frame is sandwiched between the brackets nothing is going to move.

this goes to show anyone who is second guessing the necessity of an adapter plate, use one. i just bought some new 40 and 60 grit flap discs, i agree those things work awesome. I'm not sure about the welding vs not welding in captain fabs bracket. I think your right about the sandwiching making it strong enough, thats how most of the aftermarket chassis components work too. id feel comfortable doing that if the frame wasn't cracked. I'm not sure i have the engineering knowledge or experience on whether to weld in the plate or not..

[scum1]

heres a quick vid on the other side of the problem..sourcing parts for a steering box that I'm unsure of the year/model it came from is a chore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N14eCGjStHA

[padresag]

I would get someone who knows how to weld properly to weld up your frame cracks. I would just tack the adaptor plate in just so that it stays in place whenever you are re & re'ing the steering box. two vertical welds right across the frame will not do it of any benifit. Mine was pretty well cracked up also as the PO had mounted it out on round spacers and it had a 3/8 inch plate inside the frame behind the frame. it was also part of the front eng mount and I imagine support plate. picture of it here

I did have a lot of weight on that frt end with the 4 cyl Detroit and NP 5speed.(I sold the eng and trans to a fellow in Santa Cruz and it weighed 1750 lbs). that is about 1,000 lbs more than small block and a T5,plus big wide tires It also had a heavy winch bumper on it also. all of that put a lot of stress on the steeriing box part of the frame. I even had grade 8 7/16 bolts mounting the box and snapped a few of those. It now has a 283 back in it with a T5 and a chrome bumper. It was a nice steering truck, but it will be a lot lighter now. I measured the height of how high the frame camu when I took the Detroit out and it was about 3 1/4 in. and only went down about a 1/4 in when the 293 went in.
I did put a section of that plate back inside the frame about 5 - 4 inches longer on each end of the adaptor plate. I made my own adaptor and none of the plates are welded in
here is a picture of that front bumper and as you can see it was no feather weight. when I first got the truck at the end of 1990 it had 36 x 15 x 15" tires on it. those also take power to turn when you are espc. sitting

ron

[vince1]

The rag joint should be easy enough to find. The spline count has to be the same of course. I'd look for one in a junkyard as there would be lots to compare it to. Yours should be destroyed by maybe cutting it in half or useing it as a practice piece for welding so it can never find its way to another vehicle.

[RKS0069]

Just an FYI, Captain Fab just designed an inside backing plate to work in conjunction with his adapter plate. I will be using it on my '62 X frame but it would be very helpful for enforcing your damaged frame. You would not need the 7/8 tube on a normal frame.

[scum1]

i like that! Im gonna get a piece of plate for the back and drill some holes in it for sure. what is the thickness on those plates..3/16" or 1/4"..I think 3/16" would be sufficient.

[wcstory]

Originally Posted by scum1

Great advice. Thank you! I was under the impression that mig welding with flux core gave a hotter more penetrating weld than with co2. Is that not accurate? I have heard a debate or two in the past. In either case thanks for the advice, thats just what i was looking for.

Flux core is an excellent product and I've used many different commercial wire feeders in the field work doing metal building and general steel work. That being said the common "gasless" wire feeders available to the general public SUCK!! Inconsistent power supplies and feed speeds. This lead to inclusions or slag being deposited in the weld puddle. Blueberries in your muffin are tasty, but dingle berries in your structural weld are not!!

Overall there should no difference in weld quality between flux core wire and solid core wire with shielding gas...IF using a quality 220v wire feeder such as Lincoln, Miller, Esab, etc.

You mentioned drilling the ends on the crack. That is NOT the end of the metal fatigue. Using a dye penetrant you will normally see real fine cracks extending beyond the clearly visible crack. This is why you start your weld 1/2" prior to the "V" you created over the crack. Once you have formed the molten puddle you begin pushing the heat forward into the weld zone. This pushed impurities ahead and to the sides of the arc puddle preventing the Swiss cheese effect. Structural welds (MIG, TIG and Stick) are always conducted in a pushing forward pattern.

An easy practice prior to doing your frame weld. Get two pieces of 1/8 to 1/4 plate, grind it clean, stand one plate 90* in the middle of the other. Create an inverted T. Tack it up and weld across it (at least 4"). After your done brake the weld by folding the plate from the unwelded side toward the welded side. A good weld seam will break down the center. If the weld brakes to one side or the other you are not getting a good fusion. Remember start you weld and begin to make a repetitive series of Cs. There are tons of you tube videos, but nothing helps more than practice. Clamp a piece of steel plate to the frame and weld across it (NOT WELDING IT TO THE FRAME!!)

[BR3W CITY]

I'm pretty much with these guys. MIG welding it is going to be the most straightforward way to get it done quickly. I really like TIG in some cases like this just for the ability to vary both the filler feed and heat on-the-fly, but the learning curve and equipment accessibility are a different matter.

Oh, and this is a side note but I'm paranoid; if you have an efi computer or any other sensitive or high power electronics (amps, aftermarket A/c ), make sure you disconnect both battery cables and make sure that there aren't any grounds attached in the immediate vicinity of the repairable area. While not super likely, there is some risk of doing damage to sensitive electronics from the high heat and current being applied to the area, or from high freq pulse if on a TIG. Its minor, but better to consider it ahead of time just in case.

[wcstory]

Originally Posted by BR3W CITY

Oh, and this is a side note but I'm paranoid; if you have an efi computer or any other sensitive or high power electronics (amps, aftermarket A/c ), make sure you disconnect both battery cables and make sure that there aren't any grounds attached in the immediate vicinity of the repairable area. While not super likely, there is some risk of doing damage to sensitive electronics from the high heat and current being applied to the area, or from high freq pulse if on a TIG. Its minor, but better to consider it ahead of time just in case.

Place your ground as close to the work site as possible and clean the ground area.

While at the Welding and Fabrication shop I had my fair share of collateral damage. My hair was longer than my thoughts before doing something. 98% of the "OOPS" was from melting nearby parts or cutting torch and grinding spark showers. Never had electronic damage from the high frequency TIG, Plasma Torch or Pulse Arc welders I used. Probably just dumb luck

I would still remove the battery positive lead and if possible earth ground the frame while doing any work with electric tools.

In my current career I deal with electronics. Electro Static Discharge or ESD is a HUGE killer of expensive plug in cards. An ESD is that static zap you get in the dry winter when touching a door knob. Insulators such a Styrofoam cups are a huge store of charges.

[BR3W CITY]

My worst collateral damage is a few SD cards. The high freq @ high amp is enough to actually wipe out solid state memory devices. I usually listen to music in one ear while doing lots of fab, and I've corrupted the cards. I started wrapping my phone/ipod/device in copper foil to give it a faraday cage effect.

[scum1]

definitely sound advice..i never knew for sure if it would damage anything, but Ive made it a habit to disconnect batteries before welding.

on another note...i just received captainfabs adapter plate and noticed a couple things that are wrong.

i should have figured that because of the poor installation more things were wrong. captain fabs template proved very helpful in identifying the main problem, which is the holes drilled for the steering box are not in the right location on my frame. Im going to have to..

1. drill new hole per template (which will put the box at a different angle, the correct angle)
2. ill have to take idler arm off to get everything lined up with the pitman arm and drag link, and re position the idler arm in the correct orientation.
3. I'm sure its going to effect my steering shaft in some way (ill need to make it shorter?) which ill have to address when that time comes.

i don't think its the end of the world, in my mind i can picture what needs to be done. the only thing that bothers me is the fact that within a space of about 36 sq inches, ill have about ten holes drilled in. 3 original,3 in the wrong place, and 4 in the right place..

what do you guys think..i don't have a lot of options. remember the crack will be welded, and I'm sandwiching the frame between captain fabs plate and an additional behind.

any comments..

[vince1]

I got a bracket and inside piece and put on a 67 box. As I recall there was only one other hole to drill. I also used the 67 collapsible shaft and every thing pretty well bolted in like it was original. I did not have to undo the idler arm. The Pittman arm bolted in no problem that I could see.

I'd try and pick up your original holes by maybe comparing to another truck that has not been modified or at least be aware of where they were and if it is best to bring them back. Looks like you have some figuring out to do with which box, column and the shaft length and alignment etc. Maybe you should work back from the idler arm and Pittman arm and see if it lines up with the brackets and box. I don't understand why you would need to remove the idler arm but appreciate there may be circumstances why you may have to do so.

[Captainfab]

When I have installed power steering on these trucks, once I have the adapter plate in place, I plug weld the existing holes in the frame to the adapter plate. This is in addition to stitch welding the perimeter.

[padresag]

Originally Posted by scum1

definitely sound advice..i never knew for sure if it would damage anything, but Ive made it a habit to disconnect batteries before welding.

on another note...i just received captainfabs adapter plate and noticed a couple things that are wrong.

i should have figured that because of the poor installation more things were wrong. captain fabs template proved very helpful in identifying the main problem, which is the holes drilled for the steering box are not in the right location on my frame. Im going to have to..

1. drill new hole per template (which will put the box at a different angle, the correct angle)
2. ill have to take idler arm off to get everything lined up with the pitman arm and drag link, and re position the idler arm in the correct orientation.
3. I'm sure its going to effect my steering shaft in some way (ill need to make it shorter?) which ill have to address when that time comes.

i don't think its the end of the world, in my mind i can picture what needs to be done. the only thing that bothers me is the fact that within a space of about 36 sq inches, ill have about ten holes drilled in. 3 original,3 in the wrong place, and 4 in the right place..

what do you guys think..i don't have a lot of options. remember the crack will be welded, and I'm sandwiching the frame between captain fabs plate and an additional behind.

any comments..

you can put plugs in all of the extra and unneeded holes and weld them up
ron

[scum1]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

When I have installed power steering on these trucks, once I have the adapter plate in place, I plug weld the existing holes in the frame to the adapter plate. This is in addition to stitch welding the perimeter.

thats what i was thinking right after i posted this. but instead of welding from behind to the adapter plate, i could weld the "backplate" to the frame with plug welds, and then stitch the adapter plate to the frame ya? .this has been a pain the arse since i found this problem, but I'm also glad to be doing it the right way after having driven it all these years not knowing. I love working on my own things, and Im confident in my own skills. I'm just thankful i have this forum to ask questions and get feedback from...you guys are great!

[luvbowties]

Re: Power steering frame damage fix

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

definitely sound advice..i never knew for sure if it would damage anything, but Ive made it a habit to disconnect batteries before welding.

on another note...i just received captainfabs adapter plate and noticed a couple things that are wrong.

i should have figured that because of the poor installation more things were wrong. captain fabs template proved very helpful in identifying the main problem, which is the holes drilled for the steering box are not in the right location on my frame. Im going to have to..

1. drill new hole per template (which will put the box at a different angle, the correct angle)
2. ill have to take idler arm off to get everything lined up with the pitman arm and drag link, and re position the idler arm in the correct orientation.
3. I'm sure its going to effect my steering shaft in some way (ill need to make it shorter?) which ill have to address when that time comes.

i don't think its the end of the world, in my mind i can picture what needs to be done. the only thing that bothers me is the fact that within a space of about 36 sq inches, ill have about ten holes drilled in. 3 original,3 in the wrong place, and 4 in the right place..

what do you guys think..i don't have a lot of options. remember the crack will be welded, and I'm sandwiching the frame between captain fabs plate and an additional behind.

any comments..



Earlier you said, "2. ill have to take idler arm off to get everything lined up with the pitman arm and drag link, and re position the idler arm in the correct orientation." Assuming you're going from stock steering, just jack up left wheel and rotate it as needed to install with pitman arm still on box--no need to bother idler arm at all, as it remains in the same place on frame----in my experience!
Others?????
Sam

[wcstory]

The combined strength of Captn Fab's bracket, welded in place on top of a simple welding of the crack will provide a very solid repair........unless you are planning to go rock crawling or run baja.
Posted via Mobile Device

[scum1]

well, the reason I thought I might need to adjust the idler arm is because the powersteering box will be in a slightly different position with this adapter plate which changes the pitman arm position, which changes the draglink position, etc..

maybe it wont move it as much as I think it will. I just need to make sure when everything is installed that the drag link bar is still running parallel with the crossmember..

I don't think I mentioned earlier in the thread that the front end on this truck is out of a 70-71 c10..when I replaced ball joints, tierods etc earlier in my build all the parts were for a 71 c10. The idler arm looks like a stock arm (63-66) and I thought I remember seeing posts about having todrill new holes and reposition the idler arm when switching x members and steering components..maybe im mistaken

and also to note to people viewing/helping out, im not going from manual to power steering, I am correcting an existing power steering swap.

[scum1]

got the new rag joint on, i ordered both the dorman 31015 and the 31011, because i had seen some confusion and despite rock auto's description saying the 31015 is for power steering and the 31011 is for manual steering, the 31011 was the correct fit. it is for the slightly smaller 3/4" shaft seen in 76' and later gm, compared to the larger 13/16" seen in pre 76' steering..here is some info on it for anyone interested.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis...g-box-upgrade/

Steering boxes for the early '64 to '75 cars used a 13/16-inch-diameter input shaft with 36 splines. After 1976, all GM power steering boxes were changed to a smaller 3/4-inch input shaft with 30 splines. The newer, fast ratio boxes all have the 3/4-inch input shaft with 30 splines.