72' 402 BB rebuild

[PIG-TECH]

bad news for me yesterday, found that my oil look like metallic paint. this is my first bb rebuild rebuilt a couple 6cyl in my s10. once it is down to just the block i might send it out to get rebuilt but i dont have $5000 - $7000 to get it done. should i wait for the money or rebuild myself. what is the difference? i never had a engine rebuilt professionally is it worth all the money?

[jocko]

Lou Santiago and whats-his-face on Car-Fix just tore apart a 72 burb 402 for the same reason, knock had already begin, but the metallic paint-lookin oil was the tell tale. Good call to get it fixed before it ruins a lot of stuff.

[hugger6933]

I had a 402 based motor in a bracket race car that ended up with the metal paste oil. turned out the bearings were toast and I caught it before any major damage was done maybe you have tow. Get it stripped down then maybe take it to a machine shop and get an estimate on the heads. nowadays it may be cheaper to replace them than repair them with some aluminum castings.Then have them hot tank the block install the cam bearings and check the crank. If you do not need an over bore or pistons then the rest you can handle your self under a carport.

[davepl]

Depends how detail oriented you are and how your 6-cyl rebuilds went, I guess!

If you're up to it you can do everything but the machine work at home.

Is professional work worth it? Yes. That doesn't preclude doing a bunch of it yourself, but learning can be expensive and painful if you're truly new at it.

[BossHogg69]

Originally Posted by PIG-TECH

bad news for me yesterday, found that my oil look like metallic paint. this is my first bb rebuild rebuilt a couple 6cyl in my s10. once it is down to just the block i might send it out to get rebuilt but i dont have $5000 - $7000 to get it done. should i wait for the money or rebuild myself. what is the difference? i never had a engine rebuilt professionally is it worth all the money?

NO WAY should it cost $5-$7k to rebuild that engine unless you get crazy with it. First off, what is the engine now? stock? What are your goals? stock rebuild, performance, street/strip? You're possibly looking at turning the crank, resizing rods, maybe an overbore and some new slugs at worst. At best, just clean everything up, re-ring it with new pistons if the bore is not out if the crank & rods are fine. Then gaskets, timing set oil pump, etc. The main thing is finding a good shop that builds a few big blocks. I would think you're looking at maybe $3000 using quality parts if you end up with turning the crank, boring the block and rebuilding the heads, but that based off what I'd expect to pay in Arkansas, so your local market may differ.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by BossHogg69

NO WAY should it cost $5-$7k to rebuild that engine unless you get crazy with it.

Yeah, cousin Bubba could slap a new set of gaskets and bearings in it after ball-honing the cylinder walls.

Or you could spend $5K-$7K to have a machinist build it properly, with a new set of pistons, bored, align honed with the oil pump on, decked with torque plates, blueprinted properly and dyno tuned when done.

Quality and skill cost money. Doing it right is expensive. There are many other ways to do it that are cheaper and not right. But who wants it not right?

[BossHogg69]

Originally Posted by davepl

Yeah, cousin Bubba could slap a new set of gaskets and bearings in it after ball-honing the cylinder walls.

Or you could spend $5K-$7K to have a machinist build it properly, with a new set of pistons, bored, align honed with the oil pump on, decked with torque plates, blueprinted properly and dyno tuned when done.

Quality and skill cost money. Doing it right is expensive. There are many other ways to do it that are cheaper and not right. But who wants it not right?

I didn't say a damn thing about cousin bubba, ball-honing cylinder walls or any of that bull**** you just typed. He didn't mention anything about a dyno tune (+$600-750 minimum) either. We don't even know what type of engine he wants, I was merely offering what I'd expect to pay based on what I have paid in the past, which was a 454 a had built just a few years back, which included turning the crank, resized rods, balanced, line-hone, .030" bore, degreeing the cam, gasket set, oil pump, ARP studs, bolting on a set of heads that I provided (no machine work to them) and adjusting the valves for $2600, so that's what I based my post from. I don't have the bill right in front of me, but I can dig it up if need be.

What I did say was that I'd expect to have a nicely done, close to stock rebuild, professionally machined and assembled for around $3000.


I know what a high quality, professionally assembled, dyno-tuned engine goes for, in fact, I'm having a 532 built right now by Foxwell Motorsports and it's a hell of a lot more than $7000.

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by davepl

Is professional work worth it? Yes. That doesn't preclude doing a bunch of it yourself, but learning can be expensive and painful if you're truly new at it.

Ya seriously, who the heck wants to chase their tail learning expensive lessons lol shacking my head at myself and laughing

Personally, I'd get the block and rotating assembly done (balanced, blueprint, align hone, have everything machined and mic'ed) by a professional machinist who's done a few (hundred) and the take it home and put it on a stand, and have fun with the rest of the assembly. You could even paint while your at it.

Never enough time or money to do it right, but always enough to do it over!

[PIG-TECH]

thank for the advice, it is going to be a daily driver and not for racing of any sort. the reason i thought it would cost around $6000 to rebuild professionally was one of my local automotive shops gave me that price. and i just got laid off from work and dont have that much cash, but i do have enough money to rebuild it my self. and as i said not a whole lot of experience at it. i like Mrturner1 advice and his quote at the end. so true

[hamjet]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...make/chevrolet Not a bad price for a 454 BBC if you don't mind different cubic inches, but you can use your intake and it will bolt right in. no worries, free shipping...

[BossHogg69]

In addition to what Hamjet posted - I looked on Summit's site last night after responding earlier in this thread and saw exactly what he just posted. Yet another reason why I wouldn't expect to pay more than $3000 for a stock rebuild if your crank, rods, block and heads are rebuildable.

If I was gonna spend $6k, it wouldn't be on a rebuilt to stock-spec 402, especially when you can get these for the same price, with a warranty and BRAND NEW from the people that invented the engine in question.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/nal-12568774

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/nal-88890534

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/nal-12568778

PIG-TECH, you did't happen to work in the oilfield up there did you? I know the area (eastern OH, WV & PA) has been hit pretty hard with the dip in oil/natural gas prices.

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by PIG-TECH

thank for the advice, it is going to be a daily driver and not for racing of any sort. the reason i thought it would cost around $6000 to rebuild professionally was one of my local automotive shops gave me that price. and i just got laid off from work and dont have that much cash, but i do have enough money to rebuild it my self. and as i said not a whole lot of experience at it. i like Mrturner1 advice and his quote at the end. so true

Learned that from a wise old timer holds true so far lol I'll do it right on the next one

[davepl]

Originally Posted by BossHogg69

I didn't say a damn thing about cousin bubba, ball-honing cylinder walls or any of that bull**** you just typed.

I know what a high quality, professionally assembled, dyno-tuned engine goes for, in fact, I'm having a 532 built right now by Foxwell Motorsports and it's a hell of a lot more than $7000.

Heck, my brother could build you that 532 for half of what you're paying. Isn't that what you're saying to the other guy? With just as much to back it up?

My completely stock rebuild with replacement cam and pistons was around $5K plus dyno tuning. Granted it was a retired NASCAR engine builder that did it, so it wasn't free, but he's not slow either. That's what it costs to have someone skilled turn the wrenches. Less skill is less costly, I suppose. Skipping steps is cheaper too. Not measuring is cheaper. I cannot advocate for a low-cost build where you skip steps and don't measure stuff, and I don't see any way to do it "cheap" without compromising. Before you flip out, I didn't say you said that. I said that's the only path I can see to a "cheap" rebuild and I don't recommend it.

If you're got some other way to a $3K quality rebuild, spec it out, but I'd have trouble getting the machine work and parts for much less than that. Unless, again, you skip torque plates (ok), skip the oil pump (ok), skip the line hone (not ok), don't deck the block (not ok), and so on.


And stop yelling, it's the Internet, not a bar.

[BossHogg69]

I simply stated what I would expect to pay (from experience) for a rebuilt big block with quality machine work and professional assembly. I'm not going to sit here and 'yell' or argue about who said what.

PIG-TECH I hope you don't end up paying $6k for a stock, rebuilt 402 using your crank, rods, block and heads. That just seems awfully steep to me. But if you go that route, I hope you take steps to make sure you get your money's worth and that you are happy with the outcome.

I apologize for having a hand in derailing your thread.

[jocko]

Pig-Tech, if this isn't a vehicle you need to use as a daily driver to get to work next week, then I'd take the time to do it yourself. Save the $ that you must spend on quality machine work by a reputable LOCAL machine shop and then take your time with the rest. If you have a few $ left after the machine work, you could pay them to assemble the heads for you. If a few $ left after that, then maybe they can assemble the short block too. That's the order I'd do it in, but depends which one you're "least" comfortable with - if the short block and only enough funds for them to reassemble part of it - pick the short block then if that's what you'd rather avoid doing. If you just pull up to the shop IN the truck and say "fix it" - it will cost significantly more because of the pull/reinstall labor. If you've rebuilt 6's, you can rebuild an 8. Highly recommend a David Vizard bbc rebuild guidebook, and just walk through it. It's fun - if you follow the instructions and don't take shortcuts - you can assemble it as good as a shop. The price you are really paying for a shop to do this, whatever the cost is, is for their experience, and the included warranty. If it's original to the truck, by all means I'd keep it and rebuild it. Sounds like it's not too late, and if you disassemble, reassemble, yourself and just pay a pro to do the machine work, all will be well. You must like rebuilding them if you've taken the time to do the 6's - and you absolutely can if you've built a different engine. Just take your time. If you can't take time and need to get it running to use it - then that's a different story, and we all get in a bind like that every once in a while and have to shell out some $$ to let someone else do what we really wish we had the time to do. Ha. Drives me nuts, but sometimes it is reality.

[1quik70]

I would never pay that kinda coin for someone to assemble an engine for me. I just rebuilt my 454, I tore it down, had the machine work done, and purchased my parts from the machine shop. He installed the cam bearings, I did the rest in the barn. No issues so far, was into the rebuild for under $2k.

[davepl]

If you have the ability to do it yourself, you can do it for the cost of parts and machining.

If you have to rent someone else's ability, it's going to cost what they charge, that's all.

I've done it both ways. And I searched a ton of threads both here and on the Chevelle and Camaro forums.

My conclusion is that parts and machining will run you around $3500. You can then have it assembled, or better, checked and assembled, or do it yourself. If you pay someone to do it, I figure about 2 days of labor @ 90/hr runs you another $1500. So you're at $5K before any testing or tuning.

And as I said, it's cheaper if you skip steps. Here's a random machine shop price list, work it out yourself and tell me how cheaply you're willing to go:

http://www.rlengines.com/Web_Pages/pricelist.html

[46stude]

It's just a gasoline motor, no different from a six, four banger, or any other variant of a 4 stroke motor, so if you've successfully done other rebuilds, this one's doable too.

Personally, I'd surf C-List for a running 454 & drop it in, then go thru the 402 as time & money allow. The LS craze has dropped the price of running "obsolete" motors to dirt cheap.

[davepl]

I've sold two running 396s in the last couple of years for $650 a piece, that's all I could get on eBay. They were only oval port 2-bolt variants but were in fine running condition (not that the buyers could guarantee that, but I know they were). So the used motor isn't a bad idea if you can somehow make sure it's not a paperweight!

[Gromit]

Just my opinion but I do think that there is a regional or geographic aspect to the question of machine work on these motors, BB or SB.

For example in my area of the Central Coast of California; there are three shops with the tools and skills to prep these blocks.

I recently called around for quotes on prepping a small block 350 and two of these shops didn't want to do anything less than the entire rotating assembly (crank, rods, cam) including fitting all the bearings and the pistons.

The third (and probably the most high-end one) was willing to just prep the block, but their quote for the work was $5K minimum. They have their own process and CAM tools that are already programmed so it is a set process and not available ala carte..

It doesn't help that they already have their hands full restoring vintage Bugatti and Ferrari motors for the one percenters.

It also doesn't help that they are paying $10-$15K a month at least for the rent on their industrial space and all their employees are paying some of the highest living costs in the nation just to have a place to go home and sleep every night.

I can only assume that in some parts of the US the rent is at least cheaper than the California Coast, and where the DIY aesthetic is alive and well, and the skill set and knowledge and passion of the locals is state of the art too.. and I wouldn't be surprised to find that combination of factors with our compadres in the South-Eastern USA..

The guys at the high-end machine shop here told me they could not compete with the GM Performance motors and when I checked they were right - I could buy three (okay, two and a half) brand new GM small block motors for what they would charge in machining labor to prep one forty-plus year old block.

[PIG-TECH]

yes i did work in the oil field. i worked on the compressor stations. until the drop in the price of oil.

[PIG-TECH]

thanks for all the comments. since i got laid off i use my 72' chevy every day doing construction. and can only be down for a week tops. i have just found a 454 for sale close to my area. it comes with a 1 ton truck that is rusted out. i am going to look at it tomorrow i am going to offer him $500. then i could one day rebuild the 402 right.

[57taskforce]

Originally Posted by PIG-TECH

yes i did work in the oil field. i worked on the compressor stations. until the drop in the price of oil.

There's not many of us oil/gas boys still working right now, I'm extremely fortunate to be a field mechanic for a company that operates the same business structure when times are plentiful and when they are not. We've not had any lay offs yet but most everyone else in the area has.
I think your on the right track for now, doing what will get you going again while times are tough. That old hunk of iron 402 will be there waiting when you can do it up right. Good luck with work and your truck. Oil has got to make a rebound sometime or another.

[gvw5400]

Great idea about swinging a used 454 and building the 402 correctly when time and money are better. Good luck, and I hope you have good solid work soon!
Just remember to do things right BUT don't get too freaked out about a $7000.00
Rebuild. Your rebuilding a BBC not a Full Race ZL-1.
All the Best , Dirk

[davepl]

Originally Posted by PIG-TECH

yes i did work in the oil field. i worked on the compressor stations. until the drop in the price of oil.

Sort of a tangent, but I heard that the GM 496 big blocks (the later model EFI ones that are incompatible with everything) were popular in the oil fields for pumping and compressor stations. Ever run into them? Curious if its true.