bell housing and clutch question

[midniteblues]

I'm putting a 400 in my k20. I have a nicely done later model alum bell I would like too use in my setup.

I have the oe cast bell but i would like too use the block mounted starter.

Is there any differences between the 2 is it OK to use the alum with a 465/205 combo.

How about the clutch are they the same style between bells?

[JIMs70GMC]

I guess it would depend on how late is the bell housing, still using the z-bar or hydraulic. I know the hydraulic release bell housing takes a different pressure plate. I think you will also have to drill out the bottom 2 mounting holes on the transmission since they are threaded for the bolts, where as the aluminum housing has threads for all 4 mounting bolts. You have a later model tranny?

[El Dorado Jim]

what year truck do you have? I am guessing 72 or older,like Jim's70gmc said, if your trans was originally bolted to the cast iron bell housing you will need to drill 2 of the holes out,I used an aluminum one in my 72, but also used a trans/tcase from a 74.....the throw out fork is different for an aluminum bell housing,make sure you get one for a 73 or later

[midniteblues]

I don't mind drilling the threads.
1971 k20.
I have this bell and two new block mounted starters here and a few used ones. But no other bell mounted starters. I know the 2 new ones were for 168 tooth flex plates. My new 400 ci flywheel is 168 tooth and takes a 11" clutch.

The bell mounted starter I pulled out wasn't working correctly and instead of buying more parts it's use what ya have time.

I read here where a fella used the fork and fork ball stud from the cast bell in a aluminum bell so the adjuster rod and z bar work/fit correctly.

This is what I was hoping too do. Is OK too do this?

But in return I'm not sure if I need a flat raised or lever type pressure plate to work with this type bell and the odd fork combo.
The tired 307 I pulled out of the truck looks to have a flat diaphragm plate.

I would like too get the new clutch this week get everything together and drop the motor in next week.

Oh and im pretty sure it's the oe 465/205 combo.

[Shady Rascal]

Originally Posted by midniteblues

I have this bell and two new block mounted starters here and a few used ones. But no other bell mounted starters. I know the 2 new ones were for 168 tooth flex plates. My new 400 ci flywheel is 168 tooth and takes a 11" clutch.

The bell mounted starter I pulled out wasn't working correctly and instead of buying more parts it's use what ya have time.

Simplest solution is to take one of your good new starters and swap the nose cone off of your bad old bell mounted starter. They are a direct swap between the two types of starters in just a few minutes.

[midniteblues]

Originally Posted by Shady Rascal

Simplest solution is to take one of your good new starters and swap the nose cone off of your bad old bell mounted starter. They are a direct swap between the two types of starters in just a few minutes.

I've swapped the noses when bolt patterns didn't line up(I have a few extra cones too) but I never did it between the different mounting point starters. I never gave that a thought.

[Shady Rascal]

Assuming you're talking about regular full size GM starters and not mini starters or something oddball, it's a quick workbench job with a nutdriver to swap them over.

[midniteblues]

Well I went with my instinct and just got a heavy duty oe style clutch(perfection brand).

I'm gonna take a good look at the distance between the throw out bearing and pressure plate on the 307 before I take it apart for the fork and fork ball stud.
And try too match that to the new setup.

If I can't get it close I'll just have too bite the bullet and pull the cast bell clean it up and reassemble. Then I'll swap the noses on the starters and be done with it.

[mike16]

would the aluminium bell housing be strong enough? I know there were strengh issues with th350/400 in 4x4's and the lack of support in the bell housing area. there are benifits to the al housing but strength is not one of them. unless all your doing is driving in snow on the hiway. serios off roading compells you to go with the cast iron one. I recall you stating that you prefer the engine mounted starter. But tht is a bit of a comprimise when the al housing is also required.

Even the cast ironone with no fram support under it leaves me in some doubt. perfectly ok under warrenty and for mild off road use. i wonder about ultimate strength when pushed hard.

Just my opinion.

[midniteblues]

I had concern about the weight until I read about the same combo in square bodys.

Instead of starting another thread I'm gonna use this one for my next questions.

Figured I would get the Dana 44 back in the truck first.so I can at least roll it in the garage for some very small patches around the heater box openings.

I have all the new parts here for the axle. And am ready for reassemblely the gears are 50 and 11 tooth.
Pulled the carrier out too put the new oil seals in and noticed these engravings on the gears so someone was in it before perhaps gear set up #''s idk.
Anybody know what these markings mean?

Also I think I might have gotten the wrong oil seals.

[midniteblues]

Forgot too include the oil seal that I pulled out of the tube in the pic. But it doesn't have the extra length.
I would like too keep the metal guides. They just seem like they would work better at protecting the seal so I think I'm gonna take these back and find the flatter seals.

[midniteblues]

Well I talked with the local drive shaft/axle shop guy.
He thinks the engravings are just gear set up scribes. Kinda figured that.

Tearing down this dana it seemed like someone was in this before.
My spid doesn't list any optional gear ratio. From what I read here on the board is my truck should have the standard 4:10 ratio.not the 4:56 ratio. All the date codes seem too match my truck though. Seems weird but I guess the gears were changed. Perhaps they were done when the dump bed was installed along with the heavier leaf springs.

But anyway I picked up some different oil seals.
Here is a pick of Timken and Spicer oil seals.
The oil seal in my pic above is a national brand seal.
National oil seals local mom pop store $18. A peice.
Spicer seals from the axle shop $11. Each
The orange seal is a Timken seal from auto zone $8. Each,these were listed as a duralast part.

I didn't try napa. These are all part # 5131.

Just figured I would put this out there since I could.
An if you ask me the Timken seems too be the best out of the three. And the fella at the shop said all these seals are designed too eliminate the oe steel guide in the axle tube.
Also the front axle gear is a 4:55 and the rear is a 4:56 he said it's common thing and doesn't matter.

[midniteblues]

I did get this far with the dana.
Gonna try to get it in the next day or 2.
I found that broken wagon in the alley a while ago figured I could use it for something. It came in handy.

Thank guys for all the help here.

[chevycc1970]

I don't know if you are aware or even looked but I doubt that your 400 has threads for the clutch pivot ball in the block where your bellcrank goes. I ran across this same problem with my 400. I drilled and tapped my own in the forward location. I saw that no one has posted anything about that so you may want to look beings from what research I had done about this 400 were not offered in many manual transmission configurations.

[midniteblues]

Originally Posted by chevycc1970

I don't know if you are aware or even looked but I doubt that your 400 has threads for the clutch pivot ball in the block where your bellcrank goes. I ran across this same problem with my 400. I drilled and tapped my own in the forward location. I saw that no one has posted anything about that so you may want to look beings from what research I had done about this 400 were not offered in many manual transmission configurations.Attachment 1543386

I was kinda nervous to drill and tap for the ball stud holes but it went fairly easy.
I used a gen correct oe sbc ball stud bracket to line it up the holes.
even though I only needed the one hole I still did both of them just because. Also had too drill and tap for the oe 71 wire loom brackets.
My 400 block had the bosses but no holes for any of them.

Your truck looks like some good quality work. Good job Keep it up.

No progress on the truck today.
Gotta get my tires mounted up so I figured I should service my old bishman tire machine.
ive had it for 5 yrs now and only used it.
it can use a good cleaning and lubing.


I want it working great before I mount my new ta's for the camaro.
So these bf at's and 8 lug accurides will be my test before I do the ta's.

[Mike C]

The OEM Dana gears might have had pinion depth markings on them. One nice thing about gear sets is along the outside of the ring gear along with the part number and gear ratio you should be able to find a date code showing when the gears were made if you are interested.

On my Jimmy I replaced the bellhousing mount starter with a Denso style mini starter. This is the one that bolts to the block but has an unsupported Bendix so nothing goes past the bellhousing flange on the block but the drive gear itself.

For the most part I'm done with old style GM starters. The aftermarket gear reduction types are just so much more powerful/lighter. You can get GM style gear reduction marine starters on Amazon for less than $60 FWIW.

[midniteblues]

Thanks mike.
Never really had too many problems with gm style starters.
Just the usuals. i've Learned good tite connections clean mounting pad proper bolts and a good ground and cables are what works for me.

I did find it weird that the date codes on my gears matched the truck since I thought they were replaced. The fella at the axle shop said # scribes are pretty common on oe stuff.

When I bolted the cover back on and looked at my cover bolts laying on the cart I knew I did it again!

Opened my mouth without having ALL the clues.
Here is what I saw.... I could kick myself ...AGAIN!

I did manage too get my wheels and tires put together.

I got the new rotors and wheel bearing but duh! forgot to get new inner seals.

Oh another bike ride too the store.

I stashed the 307 wrapped in 2 tarps in my lawn wagon and parked it behind the garage too keep it out a my way for now.
I went back to pull it out the other evening with the tractor and go figure one of my tires blew out the side wall.....dum dum I should blocked it up off the tires.
So a tire change is in order for that also.

[midniteblues]

A few weeks ago when I was thinking on painting those accuride rims above I made this contraption from a old throw out bearing with a plate weld too it and clamped the set up to a junk vice and screwed it down too a saw horse.

Used it to spin the rims for sanding,clean up and primer and paint. It worked fairly well but couldn't spin them too fast cause they would blow/fan the paint away. Slowly worked the best.

I figured I wanted too Polish the camaro's wanna be drag lites before mounting the new tires.

So I made a improved wheel spinner for my bishman tire changer after i completed its well over do serviceing.

Tire machine spins at the perfect speed and I made this so I can mount the rims on it and hold a buffer or rag and just spin Polish them.
At this time I only have the 4 3/4" lug pattern drilled in it now but I also laid out and punched the 5 on 5 pattern the 5 lug metric pattern, 6 lug pattern and 8 lug just for future use and I'm Only using 3 studs too hold the wheels.

My buddy saw my contraption/adapter and is gonna try pin stripeing his rat rod wheels on it.
Should work great since I busted my butt to keep the runout to a minimal.

Another buddy booked it for a weekend too clean up some old slots.

Gotta start charging these guys

[midniteblues]

Doesn't look like I'll be using the cast bell anyway.
Cleaning it up found a cracked it goes all the way through too the fork opening.
But it looks like the alum one should work fine with the cast bells fork and ball stud.

I pulled the 307 out of my lawn wagon
And gave it a wash just cause then set it up on this cheap azz motor cart I picked up at a yard sale,hey whatever works right.

I power washed the rubber rite out of the one mount and the other is a nasty goopy mess...all ready have new ones on the 400.

After pulling the bell and clutch off the 307 the pilot bushing fell out..... guess I won't be reusing this either.