Starter took a crap tonight

[ShinyC10]

Driving home from the gym tonight, going about 35 and all the sudden the starter begins to make a horrible noise. I slowed down to listen and the truck was still running but my starter was constitutionally cranking as if I was holding the key to try and start the truck. I pulled over and turned the truck off and pulled the key out but it continued to crank till my battery died and I was stuck on the road. Pushed it a couple blocks home and under the car port. Any idea what it could be? The starter ain't but 3 years old tops. This is in a 1986 Chevy pickup with a 350 and 700r tranny. Thanks in advance

[ratskin]

Solenoid stuck. Needs replaced.

[ratskin]

Could also be the solenoid wire shorted to a hot source.

[lilpoindexter]

If you got it from autozone or oreilly, the quaity of their stuff has gone downhill in the past 10 years.

[S10Fan]

I realize time and conditions don't always allow for online ordering, but. I buy my starters and alternators from dbelectrical.com. I'm running their GM style mini starters on 4 of my Chevys along with an alternator on my Model A. Fast shipping, great prices, and the starters come with shims (never needed them) and new bolts.

[Hiluxxulih]

Originally Posted by S10Fan

I realize time and conditions don't always allow for online ordering, but. I buy my starters and alternators from dbelectrical.com. I'm running their GM style mini starters on 4 of my Chevys along with an alternator on my Model A. Fast shipping, great prices, and the starters come with shims (never needed them) and new bolts.

I have one of those GM mini starters on my cj7 with a chevy 350 and it's way better than the gigantic stock starter that was on it .

[ShinyC10]

Sorry for the last reply, been busy with school. Just got a chance to check out everything today and take the starter to get checked. Starter passed but one of my starter wires was bubbled a little so I'm guessing that caused the starter to keep engaging.

[ShinyC10]

The wire off the stud on the back of the alternator melted and took most of the wires in the harness with it. Why is that wire getting so hot?

[Dead Parrot]

Starters pull a LOT of current. The wiring is sized on the expectation that the starter will only run for a few seconds. When yours stuck on, the wires overheated. There are supposed to be some fuseable links on both the wire from the solenoid and from the alternator. If a PO didn't replace them when when they blew previously, you had no protection for your wires. The alternator wire could have overheated trying to supply full output to the massive discharge the starter created.

If you have a pull a part type place nearby, look for a junction block on a 90's era Chevy truck. Its a 5 or 6 post version of the 2 post block our trucks have. On the passenger side of the engine compartment. Get the wires with it as well. They will have the correct lug and fusable links already installed. Get the ones for the solenoid and alternator and get some of the smaller ones for future expansion. Around here, you will pay less then $10 for the whole setup.

Might consider getting a battery cut off switch in case this ever happens again.

[ShinyC10]

Originally Posted by Dead Parrot

Starters pull a LOT of current. The wiring is sized on the expectation that the starter will only run for a few seconds. When yours stuck on, the wires overheated. There are supposed to be some fuseable links on both the wire from the solenoid and from the alternator. If a PO didn't replace them when when they blew previously, you had no protection for your wires. The alternator wire could have overheated trying to supply full output to the massive discharge the starter created.

If you have a pull a part type place nearby, look for a junction block on a 90's era Chevy truck. Its a 5 or 6 post version of the 2 post block our trucks have. On the passenger side of the engine compartment. Get the wires with it as well. They will have the correct lug and fusable links already installed. Get the ones for the solenoid and alternator and get some of the smaller ones for future expansion. Around here, you will pay less then $10 for the whole setup.

Might consider getting a battery cut off switch in case this ever happens again.

Am I replacing my j block with this newer one? Or am I just using the wires from it?

[Dead Parrot]

Replacing the existing block. The new block uses much larger posts then the older one. Might be worth considering since it sounds like you will be replacing most of the existing junction block wiring anyway.

[Dead Parrot]

Here is a newer style junction block I found, complete with some of the wires and fuseable links. The links have the size in mm printed on them, you can find charts that equate size to current. The blue one is an alternator wire. The pull a part where I got these prices things like this as "misc parts" and charges a minimal price, usually $1~$5. Twist the wires together and they become a misc wiring bundle.

[ShinyC10]

Originally Posted by Dead Parrot

Here is a newer style junction block I found, complete with some of the wires and fuseable links. The links have the size in mm printed on them, you can find charts that equate size to current. The blue one is an alternator wire. The pull a part where I got these prices things like this as "misc parts" and charges a minimal price, usually $1~$5. Twist the wires together and they become a misc wiring bundle.

Just a thought, would putting a thicker gauge wire in replacement of my BAT wire off the alt do any good?

[franken]

The starter didn't magically start running while the OP was driving, so the trouble is larger than the starter.
Burning the wire from the battery to the alt means there's no fusible link. All I can think of there is the alt somehow shorted and got full battery current.

[ShinyC10]

Originally Posted by franken

The starter didn't magically start running while the OP was driving, so the trouble is larger than the starter.
Burning the wire from the battery to the alt means there's no fusible link. All I can think of there is the alt somehow shorted and got full battery current.

If it makes any difference, the wire that burned up didn't go directly to the battery off the back of the alt. It is ran to the bulkhead on the firewall

[wilkin250r]

A thicker wire on the alternator isn't really necessary. It's not bad, but I don't think you need it.

Like somebody posted earlier, your starter draws huge amounts of power, and THAT is what melted your wires on your alternator. As a general rule, your alternator is never ever ever sending power to your starter. Never.

When starting your engine, your alternator isn't spinning fast enough to generate electricity, so it's ALL being supplied by your battery. When your engine actually does fire and begin to spin the alternator at a sufficient speed, your starter shouldn't be drawing power anymore (because your engine is already running).

You don't need to upgrade your alternator or wiring because of a starter problem. Just fix your starter problem, and the rest will never be an issue.

[ShinyC10]

Originally Posted by wilkin250r

A thicker wire on the alternator isn't really necessary. It's not bad, but I don't think you need it.

Like somebody posted earlier, your starter draws huge amounts of power, and THAT is what melted your wires on your alternator. As a general rule, your alternator is never ever ever sending power to your starter. Never.

When starting your engine, your alternator isn't spinning fast enough to generate electricity, so it's ALL being supplied by your battery. When your engine actually does fire and begin to spin the alternator at a sufficient speed, your starter shouldn't be drawing power anymore (because your engine is already running).

You don't need to upgrade your alternator or wiring because of a starter problem. Just fix your starter problem, and the rest will never be an issue.

Well the reason I asked is because I have a few electronic upgrades in the truck and still have pretty much a stock charging system. Any idea what gauge to recommend running for the harness? I believe what I had was all 12g for the wires running to the starter and jblock except for the charge wire on the alt. (All with fusible links) Should I keep them that way? And is there a certain way to route them or can I kept them together? Sorry for the overload of ?'s just getting it all out in one post

[Dead Parrot]

Take your alternator to some place that offers free testing. Ask if they can do a max output test on the alternator so you know what capacity you have. Can't trust the OEM stamps since the rebuilders don't pay attention to those when they rebuild a batch. You also want to make sure your alternator wasn't damaged by the starter fault.

I know you said some place gave the starter a passing grade but I would replace the solenoid anyway. Not that hard to do since the starter is already off. Something failed and the solenoid is the prime suspect. It might have unstuck when you removed the starter.

Ignition switch failure or a broken link in steering column causing the ignition switch to get jammed to start are other possible problems.

Unless your electronics upgrades cause earthquakes when activated, your stock sized wiring is probably good. You should replace any wiring that shows signs of melting or overheating. Good time to make sure you have fusible links everywhere they need to be.

[ShinyC10]

Originally Posted by Dead Parrot

Take your alternator to some place that offers free testing. Ask if they can do a max output test on the alternator so you know what capacity you have. Can't trust the OEM stamps since the rebuilders don't pay attention to those when they rebuild a batch. You also want to make sure your alternator wasn't damaged by the starter fault.

I know you said some place gave the starter a passing grade but I would replace the solenoid anyway. Not that hard to do since the starter is already off. Something failed and the solenoid is the prime suspect. It might have unstuck when you removed the starter.

Ignition switch failure or a broken link in steering column causing the ignition switch to get jammed to start are other possible problems.

Unless your electronics upgrades cause earthquakes when activated, your stock sized wiring is probably good. You should replace any wiring that shows signs of melting or overheating. Good time to make sure you have fusible links everywhere they need to be.

The original plan was to replace the solenoid just in case so I'll do that then get the alt checked and post an update once it's back together

[ShinyC10]

Originally Posted by Dead Parrot

Take your alternator to some place that offers free testing. Ask if they can do a max output test on the alternator so you know what capacity you have. Can't trust the OEM stamps since the rebuilders don't pay attention to those when they rebuild a batch. You also want to make sure your alternator wasn't damaged by the starter fault.

I know you said some place gave the starter a passing grade but I would replace the solenoid anyway. Not that hard to do since the starter is already off. Something failed and the solenoid is the prime suspect. It might have unstuck when you removed the starter.

Ignition switch failure or a broken link in steering column causing the ignition switch to get jammed to start are other possible problems.

Unless your electronics upgrades cause earthquakes when activated, your stock sized wiring is probably good. You should replace any wiring that shows signs of melting or overheating. Good time to make sure you have fusible links everywhere they need to be.

The original plan was to replace the solenoid just in case so I'll do that then get the alt checked and post an update once it's back together

[ShinyC10]

Originally Posted by Dead Parrot

Take your alternator to some place that offers free testing. Ask if they can do a max output test on the alternator so you know what capacity you have. Can't trust the OEM stamps since the rebuilders don't pay attention to those when they rebuild a batch. You also want to make sure your alternator wasn't damaged by the starter fault.

I know you said some place gave the starter a passing grade but I would replace the solenoid anyway. Not that hard to do since the starter is already off. Something failed and the solenoid is the prime suspect. It might have unstuck when you removed the starter.

Ignition switch failure or a broken link in steering column causing the ignition switch to get jammed to start are other possible problems.

Unless your electronics upgrades cause earthquakes when activated, your stock sized wiring is probably good. You should replace any wiring that shows signs of melting or overheating. Good time to make sure you have fusible links everywhere they need to be.

My schedule just allowed me to get the truck finished but now the fusible links to the big stud on the starter solenoid get hot

[Bluestep]

Shiny, I feel I have to offer some advice.
I do not believe at this point that you need to be making changes to the electrical system on your pickup. You just need to repair it. The wires that are overheating should never carry any of the load of the starter motor. They should only provide power to the lower amperage circuits, including the switch circuit for the starter solenoid. I believe your problem is the positive battery cable is not carrying the whole load for some reason (either a poor connection or a failure within the cable, which most likely at a terminal end.) This condition is causing the starter to pull amperage through the smaller wires. My guess is someone added a hot wire from the battery to the alternator which provided a complete path to the starter.

When something that previously had been working fine fails you need to ask yourself, "what failed or what changed?". Too many times people make more changes instead. If it worked for 40 years the problem is not an engineering problem.

The unintentional starter engagement is another issue and is probably the result of wires touching which shouldn't or a mechanical problem at the ignition switch.

Good Luck

[ShinyC10]

Originally Posted by Bluestep

Shiny, I feel I have to offer some advice.
I do not believe at this point that you need to be making changes to the electrical system on your pickup. You just need to repair it. The wires that are overheating should never carry any of the load of the starter motor. They should only provide power to the lower amperage circuits, including the switch circuit for the starter solenoid. I believe your problem is the positive battery cable is not carrying the whole load for some reason (either a poor connection or a failure within the cable, which most likely at a terminal end.) This condition is causing the starter to pull amperage through the smaller wires. My guess is someone added a hot wire from the battery to the alternator which provided a complete path to the starter.

When something that previously had been working fine fails you need to ask yourself, "what failed or what changed?". Too many times people make more changes instead. If it worked for 40 years the problem is not an engineering problem.

The unintentional starter engagement is another issue and is probably the result of wires touching which shouldn't or a mechanical problem at the ignition switch.

Good Luck

There hasn't been any wire from the battery straight to the alt. In another post I have on a different three I listed the wires I have currently setup for the charging system. I will copy and paste them here. Hopefully this will bring up another suggestion.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=717871

[franken]

The solenoid controls the starter--nothing else. The connection from solenoid to starter is ~1" so not much is going to make the starter run but the solenoid.
The solenoid is controlled by the ignition switch. Its maybe a 5' connection. To put 12V on the wire to the solenoid, something has to short to that 5' connection.

Its not the starter, solenoid, or alternator. An understanding of electricity, or Ohm's Law may illustrate my points. Its actually pretty simple.

On another topic, make sure you have proper fusible links or other current limiting devices, or look forward to smoked wiring.

[Bluestep]

Shiny, I posted to your other thread;
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=1#post7716665

both threads are on the same subject, but the other one has more information on the wiring.

Good luck