Lookin for a 4 speed... need help deciding

[67chevy_hotrod]

My 72 Cheyenne is getting a bit of an old school hotrod treatment. I want to put a 4 speed in it but not a truck 4 speed. Granny low is cool but not in a hotrod. What is the transmission I am looking for? I don't want a newer tranny I want like a straight up bolt in situation(I.e. An old 4 speed). I've got the high tunnel with the hole cut, I've got the clutch rod and pedal assembly, I've got the z bar. I just need the tranny and pedal linkage. But what tranny? I would love a rockcrusher but I am not rich lol. And i don't know what other 4 speeds there are really.. any words of wisdom are appreciated!

[67chevy_hotrod]

Ok might consider a granny low like a 465 but I've got 3:08's (I think) and I heard the shift from 2-3 is a bugger with that ratio rearend

[Overdriven]

There's the T-10 and it's variations. The best T-10 is the Super T-10 from the 70's as installed in F-body cars or available new from Richmond Gear. Used they're a bit cheaper than a Muncie but not by a whole lot.

The good ole Muncie with its 2 delicious flavors of M21 and M22 and the not as tasty M20. They all share the same case, M22 I believe has a steel or iron plate sandwhiched in there somewhere and the ubiquitous straight cut gears giving it its "rockcrusher" namesake. M21 and M22 are close ratio while M20 is wide ratio resulting in more rpm drop when upshifting. If your engine is high strung you'll be dropping out of the powerband on upshifts but if your mill is more about torque you'll be fine. Unfortunately all are pretty pricey and changing gearsets (M20 to M21) negates any savings from starting with a less desirable trans. There is at least one company reproducing these transmissions with all new parts if you don't care about date codes but they're still $2k+

There's also the Saginaw 4spd I don't know much about. They were generally behind smaller engines and in smaller cars and not that strong. Think 305 Monza and the like with T5 durability. But if you're looking for a $500 4spd that's not a SM465 this is basically your only option.

In the interest of keeping an open mind a Tremec 5spd will also bolt up and use all the old style stuff as well. Tremec also has the option of moving the shifter forward to clear the bench seat without a funky shifter shape. But it is kind of hard to find a used Chevy style Tremec 5spd. But if you find yourself resigned to buying new it's hard to argue against the torque capacity and overdrive gear when comparing the Tremec to a repro M22 or Richmond Super T-10.

[67chevy_hotrod]

Holy moly! Thanks for all the info! I've got a lot to read about and options to explore.. it sounds like I kind of want to steer clear of a 465 then? Motor will be a 355, camel humps, 268h comp cam, z28 springs, edelbrock EPS aluminum intake, and a Holley street avenger 670. So given this, and the fact it's most likely 3:08's (could change to 3:73's) what is gonna jive the best? And fit no problem. Sorry for all the questions newbie to standard trannys.

[Overdriven]

Originally Posted by 67chevy_hotrod

Ok might consider a granny low like a 465 but I've got 3:08's (I think) and I heard the shift from 2-3 is a bugger with that ratio rearend

I took forever to write my previous post and didn't see that you had 3.08's so ignore the part about the Tremec 5spd.

As for the 2-3 shift on the sm465, I don't doubt it. I drove a sm465 4wd with huge tires and it's original axle gears, I'd guesstimate it was about equal to 3.08's on normal size tires. Horrible is all I have to say about the experience. Honestly you're probably better off just going with a 3spd and converting to floor shift if you really want floor shift. You can get them for scrap prices and then save for a proper car 4spd.

Edit: Crap you posted again while I was making my post. Let me play catchup for the new info.

[67chevy_hotrod]

Originally Posted by Overdriven

I took forever to write my previous post and didn't see that you had 3.08's so ignore the part about the Tremec 5spd.

As for the 2-3 shift on the sm465, I don't doubt it. I drove a sm465 4wd with huge tires and it's original axle gears, I'd guesstimate it was about equal to 3.08's on normal size tires. Horrible is all I have to say about the experience. Honestly you're probably better off just going with a 3spd and converting to floor shift if you really want floor shift. You can get them for scrap prices and then save for a proper car 4spd.

Edit: Crap you posted again while I was making my post. Let me play catchup for the new info.

Sorry boss! I'm kinda worried about the slow shifts and 3:08's(will eventually. E 3:73's) but I will have quite a bit of motor so hopefully that would keep my mind off of the slow trans until I can afford a bada$$ 4 speed.

[Overdriven]

Ok. So you've got a fairly basic engine that's not a high RPM screamer, 3.08's now, possibly willing to go 3.73's and some parts necessary for the an old school manual. You don't list bellhousing, flywheel or clutch in the parts that you already have.

All the transmissions I listed above have a Chevy version that bolts up to old school bellhousings and use the clutch fork and everything else. My 67 C10 has a 250 6cyl with 3 on the tree and I can swap in any of those transmissions. Might have to change out the clutch disc to accommodate the spline count of the trans input shaft and obviously a different shifter and driveshaft length but that's it. Nothing changes from my clutch pedal to the clutch fork. Btw the 6cyl and v8 bellhousing are the same, gotta love it when they leave a design alone for so long and so much is interchangeable. The worst part about going with a 4spd (that's not sm465) or 5spd is the shifter location. Cars put the shifter towards the back of the trans and it could end up right at the front of the bench seat. Haven't looked into 4spd much for this but the Tremec has the option of moving the shifter forward so the shift lever is t as much of a U shape to get around the bench.

What is best? If you're going to stay with the 3.08's then you don't want overdrive as the rpm will be too low, so just stick with a 4spd. The only way to go 5spd would be with Richmond's 5spd that has a 1:1 5th gear instead of overdrive. I don't know much about those but pretty sure they install like a tradional 4spd except for the shifter. I don't really like the sm465 either, kind of pointless in a hot rod street truck. A later 3spd with 1st gear synchros (69? and later c10) converted to floor shift will give you the same functionality as the sm465 for a street truck. As I said I don't k is much about the Saginaw 4spd but have seen them compared to the T5 durability wise. If you're going to do hot rod things with your hot rod truck like burnouts and hard launches and shifts it might not be the best choice.

T-10's are better in Super flavor and you need to make sure they're Chevy style as they were made for Fords and others as well. Haven't seen any around here for less than about $700. M20's and some M21's generally go for $700 and up for unknown condition, $1k and up for something checked out or refreshed at some point. Boxes that have been rebuilt at some point are generally $1200 and up. Watch out for cracked or broken off mounting ears and cracks in the case on the input shaft side. With your engine I wouldn't worry about the wider ratios of the M20, the powerband should pull the gears just fine.

If you're willing to swap to 3.73's then 5spd with its overdrive becomes an option. I'm guessing my 67 has 3.73 or lower gears so this is the route I've been researching most. The Tremec TKO series is the best option for 5spd in my opinion. T5 won't live long for me, the cost of a upgraded version vs it's durability it's better to go TKO. There's the NV4500 but it's not really a performance trans like the TKO either. Worst part about the TKO is it's price tag of about $2700 new and the fact that Chevy versions don't come up on the used market often. Ford versions do but their history is questionable and while aftermarket bellhousings to adapt them to Chevy engines are available that sounds like a complicated recipe of parts for the clutch and clutch linkage.

Hope that helps. It really comes down to what you have already, how much your willing to and can change while staying within your budget.

[67chevy_hotrod]

I can get pretty much any part for fairly cheap I'm so close to a lot of junkyards. I like the t-10 route. I found one on cl for 600 out of a 70's vette. No linkage but that can be had for about 200 bucks from summit. The only thing then is the shifter location. I would want it in the standard spot but that can't happen with a t-10. Thinking about a 465 just to get started to have a good tranny in the truck, well getting all the conversion work done.

[Overdriven]

Did it to me again, posting while I'm slow typing and thinking.

Btw I'm no engine builder and not the best at estimating power. So don't take me calling your engine basic as an insult. Best guesstimate I can make based on a Comp Cams graph for the 268 High Energy is 300-350hp.

Either way, probably best to avoid the Saginaw and T5 for durability. If you're worried about slow shifting then stay away from sm465 and the 3spd. Save the pennies for good trans. Google some gear calculators, input your tire size, rear gear ratio and see what the RPM's are like at highway speeds. Scour eBay, Craigslist, Racingjunk, Facebook groups and see what pops up that'll fit your needs and vision.

[Overdriven]

Originally Posted by 67chevy_hotrod

I can get pretty much any part for fairly cheap I'm so close to a lot of junkyards. I like the t-10 route. I found one on cl for 600 out of a 70's vette. No linkage but that can be had for about 200 bucks from summit. The only thing then is the shifter location. I would want it in the standard spot but that can't happen with a t-10. Thinking about a 465 just to get started to have a good tranny in the truck, well getting all the conversion work done.

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about the shifter location. Stock is under the dash, car 4spd is close to the seat. TKO with forward shifter location is somewhere in between. Weld a patch into the high hump and move on. I also wouldn't waste money sourcing a sm465 only to replace it later. If it was me I'd jump on the Super T-10 from the vette and research shifters to try and get it as far forward as possible. But I'm not you and my truck is about to be parked for the winter. If you haven't seen it here's a thread with some Muncie examples which should put the Super T-10 shifter in a very similar spot.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=359659
and
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=637425

[special-K]

Any of the car 4spds are good in these trucks. The Saginaw is the cheapest choice, usually, and will do just fine. It won't take as much abuse, but only you know your habits. I have one from out of an '80s van. Got it really cheap with shifter (long). I don't care for a manual with 3.08s. Can't be good on a clutch either. Nothing old school hot rod about that set-up. It won't sound so hot running out no matter if it's runnin' easy or hard.

[Tiger Joe]

I ran a super t-10 till this spring when I switched to a tremec. Rode hard and put away wet and never skipped a beat. It was behind a nicely built 350.

[Grumpy old man]

You need a 67 bell housing with the smaller output hole to bolt in a Muncie , using the larger hole bellhousing and just relying on the bolts will leave you with a cracked Trans or mounts .
Posted via Mobile Device

[100%Chevy]

Hold out for a good M-20/21 Muncie!
You'll be glad you did!
I've been running the same one since 1970 in my 57 Chevy.With 3:36 and 3:55 rears.
If you shop around,they can be had for around $600.00.
Mike.

[palallin]

I ran a 3.08 rear end a Saginaw car 4-speed in my '67 SWB for a long time till the semi munched the truck. With my 327 (Edlebrock carb), it was peppy and got great mileage. Never had a reliability problem, and I was not easy on it.

[Toms67]

I just bought a M 21 for my truck. Trying to figure out what I need for a crossmember. Originally had three on the tree.

[67chevy_hotrod]

3:73's would come soon after, I think I will just hold out for a Muncie

[coreyjhen]

The Saginaw was not the most durable transmission ever built, but it will live if you're not drag racing regularly. One advantage to the Saginaw is that if you find a 3-speed overdrive, you can swap the tailhousings and end up with an overdrive 4-speed. I did that one in a '66 Nova with a mild 327 and 4.11 gears and had the best of both worlds.

[67chevy_hotrod]

Come to think of it, if the truck came factory G80 Positraction RR-axle would it have a different ratio?

[geezer#99]

Originally Posted by 67chevy_hotrod

3:73's would come soon after, I think I will just hold out for a Muncie

Talk to these guys.
http://www.garagemotorsports.com/

[TwoFiftyShifter]

I'm trying to work this out myself. I've got the 3 speed and am not sure if I should keep it and throw the $300+ at it for a Hurst shifter or wait and hunt down a Muncie or T10. 3.08 gears are a killer with those trans - they have tall 1st gear ratios. The T10 and wide ratio M20 had a 2.52 gear and even that could feel sluggish with that 3.08 axle.

[coreyjhen]

Originally Posted by 67chevy_hotrod

Come to think of it, if the truck came factory G80 Positraction RR-axle would it have a different ratio?

I just looked in the GM Heritage Center (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...vm6qTg&cad=rja) and it looks like the G80 option was only available with either a 3.73 or 4.11 ratio. I could be reading it wrong, though.

[special-K]

Originally Posted by Toms67

I just bought a M 21 for my truck. Trying to figure out what I need for a crossmember. Originally had three on the tree.

Use a TH350 cross member. that's all you need. There is a tailshaft mount and it lines up where the TH350 mounts. I use aluminum car bellhousings.

Originally Posted by coreyjhen

The Saginaw was not the most durable transmission ever built, but it will live if you're not drag racing regularly. One advantage to the Saginaw is that if you find a 3-speed overdrive, you can swap the tailhousings and end up with an overdrive 4-speed. I did that one in a '66 Nova with a mild 327 and 4.11 gears and had the best of both worlds.

That's good to hear you have actually done this. That's what I'd like to do with my Saginaw.

Originally Posted by coreyjhen

I just looked in the GM Heritage Center (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...vm6qTg&cad=rja) and it looks like the G80 option was only available with either a 3.73 or 4.11 ratio. I could be reading it wrong, though.

I don't know. I always thought there were no 3.08 posis, but I have had some. I never went with one because I always liked 4.10s and had a few with 3.73. My comments on posi with 3.08 come from a friend's build. He didn't like it and went with 3.73. He finally decided he would go to 3.42 for grunt as well as better top-end. That's what I have for my '67 327/M22/3.42 posi. If I end up with o/D that will still work well

[67chevy_hotrod]

I love this site! So much info but not enough time to reply to everyone!!

[LockDoc]

Originally Posted by Toms67

I just bought a M 21 for my truck. Trying to figure out what I need for a crossmember. Originally had three on the tree.

If you have a '67 you shouldn't need a cross member, just bolt it to the stock bell housing and go....

LockDoc