58 Apache Bagged Cummins

[IggyPop58]

First time poster, so please forgive me for any mistakes I might make.

Anyways, I have a 1958 Apache that is currently a roller and a 97 ram 3500. I was wondering if anyone has put a 6bt in a bagged 58? I've found builds where a 6bt was swapped in, I've seen builds where they were bagged. I haven't found them together. If anyone knows of a link to a similar build please share. I just want to get a better understanding of what I would be getting into if i start down this route. Thank you.

-Gabe

[mongocanfly]

not a 58 but.....
http://www.chevytv.com/showstopper-c...vy-c30-dually/

ive seen this one...part of the engine is under the cowl...

[dsraven]

i have seen a build where it was done but the guy had to narrow the chassis to fit the old truck and it was a 4x4 so it sat high, no ire to fender issues, the tires stuck out from the truck if you like that look. lots of geometry issues there for steering parts etc. the engine will need to tuck in under the dash as well. possibly use the floor, firewall etc from the donor?
have a pile of cash stored away for all the extra stuff you will need and don't think of right away until you come to that point in the build. gonna take a lot of time and space for all the stuff from 2 truck dissassemblies. take lots of pics with dimensions and label all the pats as you remove them. not trying to discourage, just saying, you will need some good fab skills, good mechanical knowledge and lots of space. a large pocket book would also be an asset.

[gigamanx]

Originally Posted by IggyPop58

First time poster, so please forgive me for any mistakes I might make.

Anyways, I have a 1958 Apache that is currently a roller and a 97 ram 3500. I was wondering if anyone has put a 6bt in a bagged 58? I've found builds where a 6bt was swapped in, I've seen builds where they were bagged. I haven't found them together. If anyone knows of a link to a similar build please share. I just want to get a better understanding of what I would be getting into if i start down this route. Thank you.

-Gabe

Quick look at prices online, seems like you'd be better off just selling the RAM and using the money to get a nice clean LS that will fit with a lot less modification. Any particular reason for the 6bt or is it just because its laying around?

[IggyPop58]

Dsraven,

I am planning to do a IFS, 4 Link rear, and box/x-member the frame of the 58, basically just planned to pull the engine and everything needed out the ram and swap it over if it seemed possible.



Gigamanx,

The LS route is the other option I'm considering for the build when I finally start on it. I picked up the ram 3500 for a pretty good price so it was a safe purchase if i decide to sell it i wont lose money. So yes the 6bt is on the table just because I already have it. lol

[mongocanfly]

just keep in mind the 58 frame and engine bay was never designed for the capable torque and weight that a 6bt produces....if your still in the planning stages I would also recommend the LS route....I think you'd be much happier in the end....the LS would be a much easier install

[RADustin]

keep the cummins.

There are enough cookie cutter LS trucks out there.

[mr48chev]

Well a slammed truck with a diesel stuck in it smells like a rat rod to me.

Along with that thought, that engine needs a seriously stout frame under it or you end up twisting up the frame, Dodge found that out when they first brought them out in the Square body 3/4 tons and had to drop using the lighter frames.
These guys will tell you that I am the furthest thing from being a fan of frame swaps bu in this case if I wanted the diesel I would swap the Chevy body over on the Dodge chassis and concentrate on getting the body to fit. I don't see the combination of Chevy cab and that diesel as being bait for a slammed truck though, lowered yes but not a ground scraper

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by RADustin

keep the cummins.

There are enough cookie cutter LS trucks out there.

if the goal is to do something different, cut the firewall for the engine, find a radiator to cool it, upgrade all the frame and suspension to carry it, change the fuel system to feed it, and generally make it work. in fact the only thing you probably shouldnt do is get online and ask others how to do it.


said another way, punching the wall over and over may, with a lot of time and pain and associated costs, eventually produce a beautiful work of art. but I will still just use paint instead.


I like different, I do different (and sometimes deeply unpopular) stuff. so dont misunderstand.

[RADustin]

an LE8 common in squarebodies made ~360 ft-lbs. stock 6bt makes 400 ft-lbs.

what's also interesting is the GM granny low was in the 6:1 range and the getrag unit in the dodge was around 4:1, effectively giving the 454 more torque output.

my point is, if this gentlemen was asking about a big block conversion nobody would bat an eye on the frame stiffness.

if the 6bt is going to go in stock it be fine. If you're going to turn it up I would look for a period correct 3/4 or 1 ton frame to use or beef up the original one.

[RADustin]

diesels are more efficient than their gasoline counterparts at turning liquid energy into rotational power, therefore actually needing less cooling.

a standard drop in aftermarket aluminum radiator would be more than sufficient for the cummins.

[joedoh]

a 454 is 675 lbs. a cummins 6BT is close to twice that.


if you have read through some of the 6BT swaps, a drop in radiator is not enough and is one of the biggest problems with the swap

[RADustin]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

not a 58 but.....
http://www.chevytv.com/showstopper-c...vy-c30-dually/

ive seen this one...part of the engine is under the cowl...

problem with this setup is adjusting valve lash on number 6 would totally suck.

[RADustin]

Originally Posted by joedoh

a 454 is 675 lbs. a cummins 6BT is close to twice that.


if you have read through some of the 6BT swaps, a drop in radiator is not enough and is one of the biggest problems with the swap

yes the cummins is about 400lbs more.


none of the cummins swaps I interact with have cooling issues. none have fancy cooling systems.

The stock setup in a non-intercooled dodge is super basic. Keep the engine driven fan with a shroud as it'll out move any electrics. That's pretty much it.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by RADustin

yes the cummins is about 400lbs more.

a 6BT is 1200lbs dressed. thats almost 600 lbs more.

Originally Posted by RADustin

none of the cummins swaps I interact with have cooling issues. none have fancy cooling systems.

are any in a 58 chevy truck? there are some 6bt swaps in the projects sections, the radiator to fit the core support is one of the problems.

Originally Posted by RADustin

The stock setup in a non-intercooled dodge is super basic. Keep the engine driven fan with a shroud as it'll out move any electrics. That's pretty much it.

the truck that has the #6 under the cowl in the link above doesnt have room for the stock fan. you are talking loftily about something you have never done, and wont chip in on finishing.

my advice was if you want to do it, do it! but be aware of the problems with the swap. drive up and help him, if you are so certain its easy.

[RADustin]

the problem with the firewall is not how the motor is pushed into it, but rather how the clearance on the top of the recess is minimal.

I fit a large aluminum radiator and an air2air intercooler with a condenser in a coresupport in the front of my '49. I am sure my cooling setup would cool a stock 6bt.
These TF trucks have even more space, so yes- it isn't terribly difficult.


I'd be happy to help the guy as he progresses.

so much negativity. dang.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by RADustin

the problem with the firewall is not how the motor is pushed into it, but rather how the clearance on the top of the recess is minimal.

well you cant lower it much in the engine compartment on a bagged truck. and to fit a stock fan you would have the back two cylinders under that recess. thats a 60-66 too, even more room than a TF. visit the project section, the TF/6bt that stands out in my memory is the one with the firewall recess all the way to the surface of the dash.

I am not saying its impossible, just to be aware of the pitfalls. its one thing to build a 6bt truck to tow a trailer or do that kind of work, but building one to bag it, well, its going to be a lot of work just to prove a point.

[dsraven]

how about you just keep the dodge frame etc and make the old cab and box fit.
just thinking that would be easier and keep the frame/steering etc all stock so it would drive/steer/corner etc like it was meant to.
body work=easier than frame work. maybe use a stock width cab and a set of big truck front fenders etc for the extra width and bigger wheel openings?

[mongocanfly]

iggy
if your intention is to have a diesel powered 58 I would consider a 4bt over the 6bt just from a ease of install standpoint...one thing we don't know is your skill level...have you done anything like this before?
its gonna take a lot of fab work to squeeze that 6 in there...a 4 would be easier I think...

[whitedog76]

Big block, small block, 6 cylinder, gas, diesel, who cares? Do what you want.

Anyhow, I don't see why it couldn't be done in a clean fashion. Guys have been stuffing GMC 302's in AD trucks for years. Sure there was some cutting and hacking, radiator moving, etc... That's part of hot rodding. The GMC 302 was long and heavy, not a whole lot different than the Cummins. Not to mention, the AD trucks came with short water pump 235's whereas the TF trucks had the long water pump version, which tells me they had a longer engine bay.

I know the short 235 is 30" from bellhousing to water pump. From research, the Cummins is 34 to the water pump, minus the fan.

The Cummins will have more to it than the venerable inliner. Such as, Turbo, intercooler, and all it's plumbing. So that may become an issue.

The Cummins will weigh a bit more than the old inline. But, if you've ever pulled a 235, 261, or 302 you'll notice they aren't exactly light.

Some frame boxing plates will help. Adding some crossmembers, will help even more.

A set back firewall may or may not be needed. I would be willing to guess a larger trans hump will be necessary.

Here's an AD truck with a Cummins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5cKNhC--Y4

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by whitedog76

I know the short 235 is 30" from bellhousing to water pump. From research, the Cummins is 34 to the water pump, minus the fan.

A set back firewall may or may not be needed. I would be willing to guess a larger trans hump will be necessary.

are you sure you didnt get the measurements from a 4BT? a 6BT is longer than 34 inches, it is 40 plus the belts/serpentine. an AD GMC with a 248 was an inch and a half longer than a 235 and needed the rad moved inside the core support and a shorter water pump/fan to fit.

your youtube link shows a 6BT with the back two cylinders inside the firewall. the first link in the thread shows a 60-66 which has a couple inches more room than a TF.

here is the engine setback of a 6bt in a 55 TF






67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=735623

that truck used the dodge frame and running gear too.

[IggyPop58]

Well everyone by the sound of it a 6bt sounds like its probably out of my skill range/budget/space available in my garage. Maybe a 4bt but it will likely end up being a LS swap. I wont be able to start until july at the earliest when i get back from this deployment. Thanks everyone for all your input.

-Iggy

[mongocanfly]

deployment you say...well thank you for your service....

[IggyPop58]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

deployment you say...well thank you for your service....

No, thank you for the support. Also heres a picture of my truck as it sits now

[whitedog76]

JoeDoh, I can't say if the 34" is accurate. Just info from other forums. I do do know that 40" to the front of the fan seems to be the general consensus.
Looking at the bottom pic, appears to be a fan shroud.

For what it's worth. Removing the fan and clutch on my 4200, gave me an extra 4" to work with.