Oil inside the starter bolt...

[Siedl]

Hi Fam! I’m back! Thanks again for all your help identifying the sabotage. Now comes the fun part...all the little things he is biting me in the ass.

1. My first concern is finding oil in the outermost, east side if your driving, starter bolt when I went to change it. It all started with that horrible grinding noise when I went to start it. I got some shims, prepared to shim it and saw he used bolts way too long because he was using big nuts as washers/spacers.
A. Fact 1. It is not the standard starter, it’s the starter that goes with the bigger flywheel.
B. First and second attempt at replacing his bolts for correct size 1st I picked the same size he already had (because yes, I was too lazy to take one out as reference) and then the second set were still too long.
C. No oil was found on the starter bolts either time.
D. I have what I believe is the right size, the shortest of three lengths readily available. When I took the long one out it had oil all over it. Not on the outside, on the head but the entire length of the bolt and threads, something you’d never see unless you took it out. I put the new ones in and they did need a washer but I got them nice and snug. I have only started it a few times because I’m afraid what that oil in there means...can anyone tell me?

Thank you!!!

[AussieinNC]

There is no pressurized oil gallery in the vicinity of the starter mount location.

Oil on starter bolt shanks is usually a sign the sump pan gasket is leaking oil which runs across the pan rail and collects in the bolt hole. It would also be a good idea to check the oil pressure switch is not leaking oil allowing it to run down the rear flange of the engine.

The correct bolts are about 1/4" of solid shank longer than the height of the starter flange. The bolts should have a knurled shank down near the threaded section.

One item that is often missing at install time is the brace piece that runs from the end of the starter motor body up to a mount location just above the pan rail. This bracket greatly strengthens the starter motor mounting. (see pic)

Hope this helps....

[Siedl]

I’ll check all three now. Thank you!

[Siedl]

One more thing, what can I use to measure the distance between the ring gear and flywheel? I’ve read .001 all the way up to .020; additionally a paper clip or a 1/8th drill bit diameter. Quite abut of variation...

[Siedl]

Got it here...

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=164727

[AussieinNC]

I use a paper clip to set starter gear to ring gear tooth back clearance.

Dont overtighten the outer bolt...

If that outer bolt hole is a blind hole, I always drill a small, 1/16" hole through the end of the ear, to prevent any chance of hydraulic lock when screwing the bolt in.

[HO455]

Originally Posted by Siedl

One more thing, what can I use to measure the distance between the ring gear and flywheel? I’ve read .001 all the way up to .020; additionally a paper clip or a 1/8th drill bit diameter. Quite abut of variation...

I use Allen wrenches to check the clearance.
I am suspect of the .001 clearance and would assume it to be a typo and the correct number would be .010. Just my opinion
.

[Siedl]

I was thinking the same thing.

[Siedl]

So there is no bracket attaching it to the block.

I noticed the drain plug had a drip but need to take a closer look for what’s dripping down the bolt.

New question:
Is there any level of wear on the starter gears that would still allow normal function? Besides really not wanting to change it out, I’m wondering if the whining after I start it is because it’s now too far away or because the gears are worn down. There’s the equivalent of two shims, but it’s one cut in half stacked and placed on the engine side of the starter. Should I replace those with one in tact shim? Two in tact shims? Do I have it backwards? Am I actually pushing the starter away with the shims and take them away completely?

As I was measuring the distance I was going for the wire/paper clip sliding easily but to wiggle it slightly it was touching. I couldn’t quite squeeze under the exhaust to get a good look but I’m gonna break out my camera scope and see if I can get a pick of the gear/flywheel and where the oil could possibly be coming from.

[garyd1961]

A starter takes a special bolt. It should have a cross hatch in the shank of the bolt. This is to make the shank larger to take any play out of the starter. Be sure to the right bolts.

[sick472]

Originally Posted by Siedl

I’m wondering if the whining after I start it is because it’s now too far away or because the gears are worn down. There’s the equivalent of two shims, but it’s one cut in half stacked and placed on the engine side of the starter. Should I replace those with one in tact shim? Two in tact shims? Do I have it backwards? Am I actually pushing the starter away with the shims and take them away completely? .

I have never actually measured backlash on any starter to flywheel combo, but it sounds like a good idea...

With that said, my rudimentary method has always been to install the starter without any shims. IF it does not engage (hits the flywheel face and makes a horrible grinding noise)...I put in a thinner shim (a full length shim, never halves) and try again. I keep adding shims until it engages and turns the motor (small increments at a time...a variety shim pack comes with multiple thicknesses so take that into consideration when added shims. It may mean removing a thin one and adding a thicker one back to make more shimmed space). Some times it will engage, but stay engaged and make a high pitch whining noise. This means you getting close and must add a bit more shim (the starter gear is stuck in the flywheel and spinning at motor RPM's which is much faster than the starter likes hence the whine). Once the starter is shimmed slightly past the whining point, I feel it's good to go. Creeping up to the proper shim, as opposed to starting with a thicker set of shims, allows you to find the point at which it works like it should with the smallest amount of backlash.

[Siedl]

Omg, seriously?! Lmao so, I got past the grinding on start problem and it turned into what I thought was grinding while running. I thought the starter gears were grinding the flywheel but it sounds like you’re saying it’s the starter crying because it was going to fast. You continue to say keep going with the shims, well, I went backwards and took them out :-( thinking I made it worse than better. Oof smh so what you’re saying is I should go thicker...little bits at a time. I can do that but at this point I have to ask the dreaded question which is how much damage can the starter gears take and still work properly? There is some wear in the gears because he ran with grinding on start for a while. I have some photos on another device I need to figure out how to upload.


Regarding the correct bolts, I’m just going to O’Reilley’s and of their “starter bolt” options, only one set come with the textured end and that set is too long. The other two sizes of starter bolt do not have the textured end and of those two one is the correct length. They are labeled starter bolts so I just assumed they would be acceptable. Should I be searching for the correct length with the textured end?

Thank you!!

[sick472]

When you have ENOUGH shim to engage the two gears (no horrible grinding noise with a NO motor spin scenario), but Not enough shim so that the starter gear gets thrown back out of the flywheel gear once rthe motor starts....It gets stuck in there and will continue to spin with the running motor and it "cries" as you put it. LOL Add a bit more shim. My rule of thumb is to try and shim with no more than 2 shims if possible, but others should chime in...3 or 4 shims in a pinch could be OK too I guess. None of my cars have ever needed more than 2 shims, anyhow.

As far as damage...upload some picks. These gears are pretty tough, but I don't know what kind of h@ll you've put them through.

It sounds like your on the right track!

[Siedl]

Echem, cough cough, not me, my stupid ex!! ������ I love my baby, I’d never ride with grinding like that! It was wretched as well as embarrassing! ��

[sick472]

It can be hard to advise others over the web on "what to do" scenarios because I tend to be a bit picky when it comes to my projects and so much depends on budgets, but I'll extend my advise and leave it to you. Keep in mind that I rely on some local boys to advise me on my starter issues (I'm no starter wiz-bang - just someone who has been in your shoes a few times).

I don't see much damage in the photos that would keep me from running that starter on my daily driver. If any of the individual teeth on the starter are busted off more than, say, 1/4 of the way...get a new starter. It appears that there is some slight even damage on every tooth, but not much to be concerned with. I have seen worse that still started the engine fine.

Now, If i had just put the motor together with a new flywheel and starter and this slight damage occurred AND I had an extra 20-$50...I would take it to my local Alternator and Starter shop and have the starter gear replaced. This would satisfy my picky mind by helping me believe that that slight damage would not speed up the wear on the flywheel..even though it would be only slight.

Either way, before your done you'll have pulling and pushing the starter down pat. Don't feel alone...I have pulled and pushed the starter on my very old 72 project truck at least 6 times and it has not even been on the road yet...long story for another time.


EDIT: if you want some extra piece of mind - inspect your flywheel for missing teeth. I doubt you chewed any teeth off, but a few missing teeth can yield a Russian Roulette No Start if you know what I mean.

[Siedl]

Sound advice, thank you! I think I’ll add the shims and if I can get it to start/run with no noises I’ll be thrilled...for a minute anyway. Although I don’t wanna do this all again to soon if it does go out sooner than later....maybe the lifetime warranty is enough to just yank it and get a new one...but if the teeth aren’t damaged THAT badly maybe it’s not a candidate for replacing.....nuff said. Shim it and get it back to work. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Ps I love your signature quote, that’s hilarious! Thanks again!

[Siedl]

Originally Posted by AussieinNC

I use a paper clip to set starter gear to ring gear tooth back clearance.

Dont overtighten the outer bolt...

If that outer bolt hole is a blind hole, I always drill a small, 1/16" hole through the end of the ear, to prevent any chance of hydraulic lock when screwing the bolt in.

Blind hole?
Hydraulic lock?

[sick472]

I blind hole is a hole that does not come out of the part on the other side (it dead ends)...as opposed to a through-hole...one that has an entry and an exit.

So, a blind hole, on rare occasion, can lock hydraulically. Imagine that the threads of the hole are nice and snug (no blemishes and on the tighter side of the tolerances)...add some oil, thread lock, or anti-seize to it and the threads cannot let the air escape as the bolt is being screwed in. This causes the bolt to get tight as it compresses the air that is trapped in the blind hole making you think that the bolt is screwed all the way in, but it's not.

This is rare, I've never seen it, and all you need to do is be able to see your bolted connection to make sure the bolt head is snug against it's part and the part is not loose. Most connections have washers anyhow. If the bolt is tight, but the washer is loose...something is wrong.

[toolboxchev]

I have never seen this either, usually the starter bolt is all oily due to the leaking 2 peice main seal.

Compressions, 1-11.25, He who is with VR1 has the force Luke!

[Steeveedee]

It could only be oil dripping in, and running down. As has been mentioned, there is no oil pressure supplied to anywhere near that area. The oil that seeps in is only going to go downhill, so I wouldn't be concerned at all with hydraulic locking.

[AussieinNC]

That starter is not a standard Chevy style starter...it is an aftermarket reduction gear style....

Standard Chevy starter bolts will not work with that starter....

Remove the starter and measure the mounting flange depth then add the depth of the holes in the block...you should use a hardened washer under the head of the bolt to ensure the clamp pressure is correct....

Example....if the starter mount flange is 3" in depth and the hole depth in the block is 3/4" and you use a 1/8" thick hardened washer, you need a bolt that is
3" + 3/4" + 1/8" = 3 7/8" long....closest would be 4" bolt and use two washers.

That small gear on the starter (bendix gear) is one of the failure points on these starters, especially if the gear stays out and engaged with the flywheel.

The bendix scroll surface (like a large screw thread behind the gear) needs a small amount of lube applied to it to ensure it spins back in after the engine starts.

The bendix has stayed out on your starter and needs to be shimmed down a little at a time to reduce the gear mesh engagement and introduce some clearance between the teeth of the flywheel and the starter bendix. Leaving it as it is will destroy the starter very quickly.

And could you post a pic of one of the convertor to flywheel mount points please....

I am not sure, but it looks like the flex plate is installed backwards....post a pic of where the convertor bolts to the flywheel and that will tell us immediately.

Thanks for listening to the rant...

[SmirchIs#1]

[quote=sick472;8673898]When you have ENOUGH shim to engage the two gears (no horrible grinding noise with a NO motor spin scenario), but Not enough shim so that the starter gear gets thrown back out of the flywheel gear once rthe motor starts....It gets stuck in there and will continue to spin with the running motor and it "cries" as you put it. LOL Add a bit more shim. My rule of thumb is to try and shim with no more than 2 shims if possible, but others should chime in...3 or 4 shims in a pinch could be OK too I guess. None of my cars have ever needed more than 2 shims, anyhow.

As far as damage...upload some picks. These gears are pretty tough, but I don't know what kind of h@ll you've put them through.

It sounds like your on the right

[garyd1961]

From what I know about starters. If it is making a binding noise it needs more shims. If it's making a high pitch whine it need less shims. You can shim just the outside bolt to close the gap in the gears when no shims are still too much. I had to do this with my old 307.

[Siedl]

It was the mounting block, had two cracks and a chunk missing under the mounting bolt. Couldn’t see til I took the whole thing off. Grrr

New starter starts beautifully every time.

[Steeveedee]

Great news, after all the trials!