47-55.1 Truck wouldn’t start on angled driveway?

[NeoJuice]

1952 w/chevy 350 w/edelbrock 1406 and edelbrock mechanical fuel pump. New OEM fuel tank behind the seat.

As I'm getting closer to inspection and checking the last couple things off the list I decided that the truck needed to be started since it's been a couple weeks since starting it up.

I put it in neutral and gave it a shove out of the garage and out onto the driveway. You may be thinking to yourself why would I do that? I didn't want the garage filling up with fumes and possibly trailing into the house.

I gave it a couple good pumps and turned it over and over and over until I killed the battery. I pumped the pedal over and over again and it would not start. So I got my ford and hooked up the jumper cables and let it charge up and still the same thing, it would not start. I tried even adding about 1-2 tablespoons of gas into the carb and it fired up for like a split second then died.

So I got my neighbor to help me push it back up into the garage and there she sat. I go out yesterday after having the battery on the charger for close to 24 hrs and decide to start the truck. I gave the pedal two pumps and turned the key and she fired right up.

Now I'm confused. I was thinking of all the possible scenarios that could be happening. Clogged fuel filter? Bad fuel pump? problems with the carb? the tank had 3/4 of a tank of gas in it.

If the truck wouldn't have started I was going to replace the fuel filter to start. Then after that look at the fuel pump but like I said it started no problems on the flat garage floor.

I'm thinking that drain back to the tank might be a problem. I was looking online and found that possibly installing a check valve after the fuel filter and just before the carb might solve the problem with angle parking or the truck sitting for an extended amount of time.

But I'm wondering the the pump could be going bad because shouldn't the pump act as a check valve in some fashion? The fuel pump was on the engine when I bought the truck and I'm not sure how old it is.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-650603?rrec=true

I would appreciate input from fellow forum members on this issue.

[oldstrk]

I've had the same problem with my 64 wagon if the front is higher than the back. I'm installing a small electric flow through pump Airtex 8251 on it to prime the carburetor when it's been sitting for awhile or not level.

[mr48chev]

How much gas do you actually have in the tank? The slope of the driveway may be taking what little gas is in the tank away from the pickup tube. I'd put about 2-1/2 gallons of gas in it and try it again before getting too carried away with trying to figure it out.
If it moves under it's power and everything is hooked and the fluids are filled I'd fire it up and back it out of the garage and let it idle for a few minutes and see what happens. If it quits and won't start put that extra gas in it and see what it does.

[NeoJuice]

The tank was 3/4 full. I know because a couple minutes before I went to start it I just replaced the fuel sending unit because it quit and my gauge was reading empty. Now my gauge is reading properly now.

[PDW HOTRODS]

Could the floats in the carb be closing at the angle?

[MiraclePieCo]

Originally Posted by PDW HOTRODS

Could the floats in the carb be closing at the angle?

Good thought - misadjusted floats shutting off fuel on slight incline.

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by NeoJuice

The tank was 3/4 full. I know because a couple minutes before I went to start it I just replaced the fuel sending unit because it quit and my gauge was reading empty. Now my gauge is reading properly now.

Passed that step in the process of elimination with flying colors then.

If I don't do simple things first and start looking at the hard things the simple thing that I didn't check is usually the issue.

Float level might be the issue. but it would have to be way off or you have an incredibly steep driveway.

I wouldn't think that the driveway was so steep that the fuel drained back in the line to where the pump was pumping air and not picking up the gas. I've had at least one rig that the pump would not pull enough vacuum to draw fuel though an empty line after running out of gas though. I had to blow the gas though the line by putting pressure on the filler neck to get the gas to the pump on that one.

[vintovka]

I really don't trust mechanical pumps anymore especially the majority of which are made outside of US with variable QAQC. I run a electric pump from the tank to the mechanical. Not on all the time but helps on startups after long storage intervals and on certain slopes.

[dsraven]

my 2 cents worth. possibly a couple of issues together to make your problem
-fuel is draining back to the tank slowly
-fuel is evaporating in the carb from heat soak. last time the engine was running at operating temp or at least warmed up before shut down, the heat is trapped under the hood and takes time to dissipate. this heat is transferred to the carb and causes the fuel to percolate or evaporate out of the carb so the float bowl becomes near empty
if it happens again, before you push it back into the garage, remove the air filter and look down the throat of the carb when you move the throttle by hand, key off. you should see a squirt of fuel from the accel pump. if you see that squirt then there is fuel in the carb. if you don't see any squirt then the carb is empty and a fuel system test is in order.
you can quickly check for fuel in the tank and a through pathway for the fuel to travel to the carb by simply removing the fuel line at the carb, attach a length of fuel hose long enough to reach a container placed in a good spot so you can see what's going on from the fuel fill location (if you don't have a helper to watch the jug) and also so it won't get knocked over. I like to use an old windshield washer container because it is semi clear so you can see the fuel plus it has a handle so I can run the fuel line down into the open lid a bit so the fuel line is near the bottom of the jug, then bring it past the handle on the jug and just and tie it there with a cable tie, duct tape or whatever. the jug can easily be bungee corded to something that will keep it right side up and stable. then I remove the power wire from the ignition so no spark can occur while doing the test. then I remove the fuel cap and use regulated compressor air pressure, like a few pounds worth of psi, blown into the tank with a simple air blow gun, sealing the fuel fill spout against the blow gun crudely with a rag. if you have a separate fuel vent on the tank you may need to plug that off. if there is fuel in the tank you should soon see fuel in the jug. if there is not a clear path to the carb, like a stuck fuel pump valve or a plugged fuel filter, then you won't see or hear much coming out the hose into the jug. if there is insufficient fuel in the tank or the pick up tube is above the fuel level in the tank then you will just get air out the hose into the jug. you can also check along the fuel line shortly after the test to see if there are any wet marks from a leak, which can help in the drain back issue. I have seen new pumps fail due to a stuck valve (sometimes from just sitting around not being used) but then come back to life after doing this little trick which unsticks the valves. I think the old style fuel pump valves are not made to be used with the newer fuel that contains methanol etc and so they are stuck to their seats and blowing fuel through the pump forces them to open. like you mentioned, the fuel pump is basically 2 (at least) one way valves with a plunger in between them to cause a draw and a push effect so fuel shouldn't be able to drain back to the tank. that said, they are mechanical and rely on mechanical sealing efforts. a pump can't draw fuel or push fuel if the valves are stuck either open or closed. I have also seen the little fuel line come off the pick up tube inside the tank so a 3/4 full tank could run out of fuel if parked on a hill depending on the location of the pick up tube. with that said though, you mentioned you pushed it outside then it wouldn't start. it never drove itself outside but I assume it was running at some time prior to you pushing it outside. if that is the case then the carb should have had sufficient fuel in it to start the engine. but, what can happen with the carbs, especially on cast iron intake manifolds, is the fuel can evaporate out of the carb bowl from heat transferred to the carb through the intake manifold. if you smell fuel in the garage a while after you parked the truck that is the give away but they don't all leave the odor, it can depend on the intake system etc. edelbrock carbs don't have a fuel filter at their inlet, like some of us old Rochester boys are used to having, so the anti drain back valve which these old filters had is not there anymore. a simple fix would be to install an anti drain back valve inline if you think the drain back is the problem. marine equipment uses these valves and if you find the system is allowing fuel drain back this could fix the problem.

https://www.iboats.com/shop/moeller-...b-1-4-npt.html

a simple fix for the fuel boil off is a heat spacer gasket under the carb. edelbrock mentions it here

https://www.edelblog.com/tech-tips/resolving-heat-soak

if a flow and pressure test comes up negative for the fuel pump, like no problems, then the heat sink gasket/spacer and an anti drain back valve could be your answer. also ensure the fuel lines are routed away from any heat sources like headers or exhaust manifolds. I have used semiclear inline fuel filters before on vehicles with this sort of problem so I can see if there is fuel moving. some suppliers sell the clear glass ones as well. there is also a marine float inlet valve available at a lot of boat or 4x4 shops. these work better for sealing on trucks, boats etc that bounce around a lot. also, edelbrock carbs are not made for the alcohol fuels so I wonder if their fuel pumps are possibly not made for the ethanol fuels we get these days. possibly a reason for a stuck pump valve if you find that a reality.
a quick carb tune demo from edelbrock

https://www.edelblog.com/tech-tips/resolving-heat-soak
offroad inelt needles

https://www.edelbrock.com/off-road-n...ty-2-1465.html

[vintovka]

I think draven is correct on the fuel drain back. Mine does it whenever it sits in the level garage for more than a week. I just flip the electric fuel pump on for a few seconds, the see thru fuel filter fills up and it starts right up. FWIW the mechanical pump draws fuel just fine when off. I also put a filter just after the tank and before the electric pump. I built my truck like an aircraft with as many backup systems as i could.

[dsraven]

if you can smell fuel in the area of the truck after it is shut off then it could be that the fuel is evaporating from boiling in the carb bowl. a heat shield and phenolic spacer under the carb may help that. some fords back in the day had an aluminum heat shield, slightly larger than the footprint of the carb, under the carb and some thick fibrous base gaskets. I think it was to get engine heat to go up around the carb so as to heat the carb less that way plus the fibrous gasket allowed less transfer of heat than the direct mounting with a normal gasket.

[NeoJuice]

DSRaven,

Thank you for all the information. Before the truck wouldn't start out on the driveway it was running about a week or two before. So at this point in time heat soak or boiling fuel would not be a problem. But I did think of picking up one of the carb gaskets like below to prevent any boiling/heat issues in the future.

https://www.edelbrock.com/heat-insul...hick-9266.html

I thought it might have been an issues with the accelerator pump in the carb as well but I dont think so at this time. After cranking it and cranking it over I actually climbed up under the hood to take a look down the carb. I could smell a hint of fuel and pumped the accelerator pump and I did not see it shoot any fuel into the bowl.

I knew the bowls were empty from it sitting for a week or two but now I'm thinking it might be a weak pump in combination with fuel drain back. I was talking with my father about it and he said he had a simular problem with an old 67 Javelin he had. He said it would run fine if you were on the flats but as soon as you drove up a hill the car would die. He replaced the fuel pump and the problem was resolved.

Like you mentioned DSRaven it could be a stuck valve in the fuel pump possibly keeping it in the open position and allowing fuel drain back. I will give your test a try to see what I will get from the line on the carb with my compressor. How much fuel should I expect to come out the line when doing the test? Its easy enough to remove the line from the carb and do this test.

As I mentioned the edelbrock fuel pump was on the engine when I bought the truck and I'm not sure how old it is or if it was used pump or new when put on the engine. So that could be another culperate in the chain of events. My father suggested to replace the fuel pump and put in a check valve and that should solve the problem.

What are your thoughts?

[mr48chev]

I'd say your dad is on the right path.

I was sitting here remembering hearing/reading stories of the Model T days when some cars that were gravity feed to the carb had to be backed up steep hills because the gas wouldn't feed to the carb.

The Edelbrock carb isn't hard to rebuild. You just have to have a gentle hand with a few pieces.

[NeoJuice]

The carb was rebuilt. I have a new fuel pump on order and going to try and source a check valve.