Lotta Lead

[guyryan100]

My truck had a significant vibration, it was there at all speeds but it got pretty bad above 55 mph. I got 4 new tires mounted and balanced - the tires had less than 500 miles on them but were 19 years old, so they had to go anyway. New tires (or I guess the balancing) 100% fixed the vibration.

I was not expecting the amount of balance weights it required. I assume this means that wheel has a pretty major problem?

[Warrens69GMC]

Tire is probably thinner in that area. The wheel (rim) doesn't lose balance, it loses being true (runout).

[bigmoe]

Wow I would take that tire back for an exchange. How were the other ones?

[bowtie72]

They can move that tire around the rim and try to get it better than that. Most young tire guys don’t know this trick.

[Grumpy old man]

On the sidewall of most new tyres are red and yellow painted dots. If these marks are aligned with particular points on the wheel, you will reduce the amount of weight required for balancing.

What is the red dot vs yellow dot on tires?
The yellow dots identify where a tire weighs the least — the lightest point on a tire. The yellow dot should be lined up and directly next to the valve stem, which is the wheel's heaviest point. The red dots identify where the tire is flattest — the lowest point on a tire.

[special-K]

I agree with bowtie72. Looks like a poor mounting job, first try and forget it. Life sometimes requires added effort such as this case. Wheels actually can be out of balance from the start. They are not perfect, just close. Rotating the tire around the wheel can find a better combined balance. When I tire jockey finds that much weight is required it's time to dismount and try another position

[Grumpy old man]

[Orefactory4x4 swb]

Grumpy old man.
I learn something from you all the time.
I’ve even worked around tires a little and never heard the dot thing

[KW5413]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

On the sidewall of most new tyres are red and yellow painted dots. If these marks are aligned with particular points on the wheel, you will reduce the amount of weight required for balancing.

What is the red dot vs yellow dot on tires?
The yellow dots identify where a tire weighs the least — the lightest point on a tire. The yellow dot should be lined up and directly next to the valve stem, which is the wheel's heaviest point. The red dots identify where the tire is flattest — the lowest point on a tire.

Well, I'll be ding, danged...Learn something new every day. I need to show this to The Queen. She thinks I know everything. Even says so.

"Oh, Yeah...You know EVERYTHING!"

I am getting closer, though, with this new bit of information on my list. LOL!

[Trio]

Originally Posted by bowtie72

They can move that tire around the rim and try to get it better than that. Most young tire guys don’t know this trick.

It's not a trick - it's the proper way to mount the tire, to avoid exactly what they did with the weights. I would take it back to the tire shop and have them re-do the mount.

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

On the sidewall of most new tyres are red and yellow painted dots. If these marks are aligned with particular points on the wheel, you will reduce the amount of weight required for balancing.

What is the red dot vs yellow dot on tires?
The yellow dots identify where a tire weighs the least — the lightest point on a tire. The yellow dot should be lined up and directly next to the valve stem, which is the wheel's heaviest point. The red dots identify where the tire is flattest — the lowest point on a tire.

Good info here. Sadly, I find that I tend to know more about tires than the guys at the tire shop - and I'm not that smart...

[Grumpy old man]

I started changing tires using my dads Coats 1010 machine back in 1975. He probably is still using it ! back when changing tires was actually WORK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCvO8m-W2eo

[Accelo]

"Sadly, I find that I tend to know more about tires than the guys at the tire shop - and I'm not that smart."
The way of the world. We have lost so many "Professionals".

My good friend had his Toyota worked on at a profession shop, easy job replace the belt. It wouldn't stop squeaking. He brought it back and they replaced the belt again. Still squeaked. Turns out it can be installed incorrectly, he found the information on the internet. Brought the printout to the shop. They installed the belt, correctly this time, and the squealing immediately quit. When it was done they knew they has lost a customer forever.

Still some issues with the tire. The tire shop should be able to check the balance of the rim only. That's a lot of weight to compensate for by rotating the tire on a rim, but it's possible. The tire manufacture, Michelin, will have specifications for how much added weight is allowed. Likely most just accept it as OK. It is also likely is way past any allowable specification. My advice is to bring it back and see if you can get it replaced. Or at least find out what the manufacture tolerances are.
Cheers

[Grumpy old man]

I'd look on the back and make sure they removed the old weights off the rim , If they think it's OK to use that much weight on the front of the rim who knows if they even had a clue on how it's done !

[Orefactory4x4 swb]

That’s exactly the machine I used working at a 76 station back in early80s
Self taught, needless to say bent a few rims

[Orefactory4x4 swb]

Accelo
I 2nd that, you can’t beat experience in any field.
I do bridge work and I’ve seen new hires the didn’t know the difference from a saw or drill.
You can’t buy experience,it’s definitely learned

[Rust_never_sleeps]

Originally Posted by Accelo

My good friend had his Toyota worked on at a profession shop, easy job replace the belt. It wouldn't stop squeaking. He brought it back and they replaced the belt again. Still squeaked. Turns out it can be installed incorrectly, he found the information on the internet. Brought the printout to the shop. They installed the belt, correctly this time, and the squealing immediately quit.

They have to hate when internet experts show up with something off the web. They must really hate it when those geeks are right ;-)

[guyryan100]

Here's what the back looks like. They added new weight to the back, my foot is at the center point of the where the weights on the bottom are.

[custom10nut]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

On the sidewall of most new tyres are red and yellow painted dots. If these marks are aligned with particular points on the wheel, you will reduce the amount of weight required for balancing.

What is the red dot vs yellow dot on tires?
The yellow dots identify where a tire weighs the least — the lightest point on a tire. The yellow dot should be lined up and directly next to the valve stem, which is the wheel's heaviest point. The red dots identify where the tire is flattest — the lowest point on a tire.

Now THAT is real interesting.
I’ll keep this in mind the next time I buy tires for any of my vehicles.

Does “Lining up the dot” go the same for Aluminum Alloy Wheels too?

[chiefcfd]

That needs to be moved and rebalanced. When you add weights on the opposite side on the back something is amiss. Grumpy I started with a manual changer in '73 and a Bubble balancer. When we got a Coats 1010 I thought I had died and gone to heaven. But those semi tires were still work.

[54blackhornet]

For the last thirty years I had the pleasure of working with a tire chain that had incredible talent. Recently they sold out to a venture capital firm. Now I must watch closely to see if everything is done correctly, really a shame what is happening to our country.

[special-K]

I know about those indicator dots but don't see those on all tires. I don't see any on the tire with all the weights in this thread. If the tire still requires excessive weights after they try rotating on the rim it just could be the rim. If they check that by itself and it's not the wheel, I'd demand they take that tire back as a defect and give you another.

[Accelo]

No the weights can be on the opposite side 180 deg out. The new tire balance machines also do couple unbalance. It is likely corrected for balance.
It is another indicator the tire may be out of factory specifications. The specifications can be quite generous. Remember it's the OEM that sets the tire balance specification....
Couple unbalance is a bigger issue on long cylindrical objects. But affects everything no matter how long it is. There is a specification, It is often call road balance?. It takes into account the out of round of the tire along with the balance and spits out a number. You can identify these machines as they have a roller for the OD of the tire. You can just remount the tire with the differential off the ground and spin it. Our vision picks up any out of round pretty easily.

[67 twins]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

On the sidewall of most new tyres are red and yellow painted dots. If these marks are aligned with particular points on the wheel, you will reduce the amount of weight required for balancing.

What is the red dot vs yellow dot on tires?
The yellow dots identify where a tire weighs the least — the lightest point on a tire. The yellow dot should be lined up and directly next to the valve stem, which is the wheel's heaviest point. The red dots identify where the tire is flattest — the lowest point on a tire.

I know they have done this for more than 30 years. It's been 29 years since I had a job where mounting tires was part of my job and this was a thing even back then.

[Keith Seymore]

Not trying to be argumentative, but perhaps add some more food for thought:

In some cases the dot represents "radial force variation" of the tire.

You could think of the tire sidewall like an old wagon wheel, with "spokes" - but where the spokes have varying degrees of strength, or springy-ness.

The tire is checked and marked where the sidewall is stiffest, and then mounted to the rim oriented with the valve stem. The rim is offset some increment so that as the tire rolls the spindle stays at the same elevation, rather than the stiffness transmitting the disturbance into the spindle and then the vehicle.

We called this having the tire "vectored". When I was in vehicle development I used to have a library of "vectored" tire/wheel assemblies, to install on problem vehicles to aid in diagnosis, or to install on management/executive vehicles when we were fluffing them for demonstration rides*.

The old Uniroyal Tiger Paws were terrible. I would buy aftermarket Michelins in various sizes, which were perfect right out of the box.

So - not a balance issue per se, but still a once per rev of tire rotation disturbance. Naturally, both the tire and the wheel manufacturer have to be on board before going down this path for a particular vehicle platform.

K

*In fact - I used to have a standardized check list of tasks to perform to fluff vehicles:
1) Fix vent window wind noise
2) Vector tire/wheel assemblies
3) Fix rear axle noise
4) Balance driveline as a system
5) Etc

I knew I would have to perform these task before I even saw the intended vehicle.

[Keith Seymore]

My personal belief is that tire disturbances are a function of the relative size of the tire compared to vehicle mass (less any specific design anomalies or sensitivity/weirdness).

I've got an experiment going on a couple of my vehicles where I am not balancing the tire/wheel assembly at all.

'63 Grand Prix: is a 4100 tank with P225/75R14 tires. The tires are tiny compared to the overall mass of the vehicle; plus the 8 lug wheel does not have a center so it requires some trickery to balance those (ie, balancing mounting plate, balance using one of the rear drums, or on vehicle balancing setup).

2004 Silverado 2500HD with Duramax, LT285/65R16 tires. I don't even know what this bad boy weighs, but I would guess curb weight is over 6000 lbs. No discernable disturbances or issues so far relative to not balancing the tire wheel assemblies.

'74 Chevelle drag car (various tires). This is a 3600 lbs, 1000 HP naturally aspirated beast with solid motor mounts and minimal exhaust. Speeds are in the neighborhood of 136 mph - but not for very long - and there's kind of a lot going on during that brief window. I go through a pair of drive tires in a season, and after several years of the same tires have created a couple different sets of front tires. None are balanced with no issues noted (except for one set of M/T drag slicks which took a lot of weight on one tire. I think maybe the tube is wadded up in there. I'm going tubeless from here on to see if that helps).

K