55.2-59 1958 Apache 38 brakes dragging all around.

[studeclunker]

Okay, I'll list it out here and hope the organization helps...
Truck: 1958 Chevy Apache 38
Problem: brakes dragging badly, heating up wheels and brake drums, all four wheels. Makes climbing hills with this venerable old six rather slow. I mean, I could almost get out and walk faster.

What the hell is going on? Is it the Master cylinder, or what?

Happens at the worst possible time, of course...

[IMG]front rt by studeclunker, on Flickr[/IMG]

[leegreen]

some ideas:

Brake pedal pivot is gummed up and not pulling back up all the way/spring is weak
Brake master is gummed up /rusted (but usually they would leak too)
All 4 wheels over adjusted
all 4 wheels have gummed up wheel cylinders
All 4 wheels have rusty brake shoe - backing plate contact areas

Does it have an old hydrovac booster under the cab somewhere? it may also be gummed up or the valve to control it is stuck

[studeclunker]

Well... the booster isn't underneath (just under there and didn't see anything like that. However the hydrovac Booster in my '66 is on top of the wheelwell inside the engine compartment. Don't recall seeing one. If I remember correctly though problems with those cause either a complete lack of assist or a complete lack of brakes at all!

Considering the build up under there though, It wouldn't surprise me if the pedal arm has something to do with it. I'm not looking forward to removing the brake drums. Oldies like these are never fun to get off.
Kinda seems odd all four seizing at the same time though.

It really is nice sliding under this thing! LOTS of room without having to get the jack out.

[dsraven]

if it has a booster I would be surprised.
first, do all the brakes seem to drag or just the rears/fronts/a certain wheel?
-when the brakes are dragging, sometimes after a run where the brakes have been used and are hot, try cracking a bleeder screw and see if there is a bunch od residual pressure in the system. this coiuld mean the system is not allowing pressure to bleed back into the reservoir when the pedal is released. if the brakes seem to be ok when cold but get worse and worse as they heat up it could be the linkage is not allowing the master cylinder to fully return to the fully released position so as the fluid expands when hot the brakes drag more
-adjust the brakes, park brake fully released and backed off first, then adjust each wheel, then adjust the park brake
-check all the steel lines for kinks or flat spots caused by mechanical damage
-check the rubber hoses for cracks, bulges, obvious leaks etc.old hoses can have internal breakdown which can make a flap of rubber on the inside which works like a 1 way valve, not allowing pressure to return to the reservoir as quickly as it should
-check the pedal and ensure it is coming all the way back to the top. there shold be some free play. the pedal arm should have a stopper that hits the firewall/floorboards on the engine side of the firewall.
-follow the linkages all the way down to the master cylinder, checking for worn pivots, binding linkage etc.
-check the rod that operates the master cylinder to ensure it has some freeplay so you can be sure the master cylinder is returning all the way. have a helper step on the brakes a few times while you watch what happens to all the linkages etc. check for a broken return spring that should return the pedal to the top every time easily
-check for worn out cab mounts or rusty cab mount sheet metal that would allow the body to move on the frame. this allows changes in the linkage so it affects the pedal/master cylinder rod free play
-check the master cylinder for leakage around the push rod which would indicate an internal problem. --check the reservoir to ensure it has clean fluid and the cap seal is in good repair.

[dsraven]

my tablet ran dry on juice so I was typing in the half dark scenario. sorry for the spelling.
also check each pivot and bellcrank for being stiff. this means undoing some lnkage so you can check each part by itself with nothing else connected to it. check for holes that should be round but are not and rod ends that should be round but are not.

[dsraven]

unless the brake system has been changed at some point I believe you would have a single circuit master cylinder, which means ALL your brakes are connected together in a single hydraulic circuit. if you need to change your master cylinder at the end of the troubleshooting phase you may want to look into a dual circuit master cylinder as they split the front and rear circuits. this is because they realised that if there is a leak or problem in ANY of the original single circuit brakes, and you have a failure due to fluid loss, then ALL your brakes go out at once. the park brake isn't really made to be used at great speeds so you run a good chance of crashing.
if the system is stock, and all 4 wheels are dragging, it seems the problem would be the master cylinder not releasing the system pressure when the brake pedal is released. thats what all the "check this check that" chat was about, to eliminate possible issues that can work together to make this happen. it is hard to do but if you are able to remove the master cylinder reservoir and look into the reservoir (with safety glasses on of course) while a helper steps on the pedal you should see a small fountain of fluid in the res when the pedal is initially stepped on. this is because when the master is fully released the piston in the bore of the cylinder goes past the little holes in the bore that allow reservoir fluid to fill the bore OR return fluid to the res after a brake application and equalize system pressure when the pedal is released. when the pedal is first pressed the piston initially starts to move fluid and since those holes are in the working area of the bore for the very first part of the pedal stroke the fluid moves back into the res rather than be pushed down the bore and out to the wheels where there is resistance. the fountain, or at least a disturbance in the res fluid, is normal. if there is no disturbance in the fluid it is an indicator that the master cylinder is not fully returning, so those little holes don't get to refill the bore OR return fluid to the reservoir should that be required (like when the brake fluid gets hot, expands, and can cause a pressure build up in the system). another good thing to do is hold a constant pressure on the brake pedal and check to ensure the pedal stays at the same height throughout. hold for a minute and see if the pedal drops at all. this indicates an internal leak in the master cylinder and usually is accompanied by a small external leak where the pushrod enters the master cylinder. if the rubber dust boot is deteriorated or all gooey it could indicate a fluid leak there.
dunno if that explanation helps or not. hope so. getting the brakes to drag, then cracking a bleeder screw is the easiest way to see if the system is holding pressure but it is a good idea to check all the other points as well, just to be sure it is all good before you spend money on somethimg that isn't needed possibly.

[mr48chev]

The guys gave some good advice but here are a few things.

1. reach in with your hand and push the pedal down and make sure that you have a slight noticeable free play before you start pushing on the piston in the master cylinder.

2. a return spring on the pedal is a must have with no excuses item.

3. I was taught 62 years ago to tighten up drum brakes until you couldn't turn the wheel by hand and back them off ELEVEN clicks. I've done hundreds if not thousands of brake jobs that way and taught a lot of students to do it that way. It works well, end of story.

I won't second guess old parts that might stick and worn backing plates that the shoes might hang up on the little rub pads that they slide on. Some times old worn shoes slide over those ridges and you put new shoes on and the sharp edges hang up.

[dsraven]

does the truck do this all the time or just after it has been driven for a bit and the brakes have been warmed up?
take it for a spin to warm things up
jack up truck and block so all wheels are off the ground
check if the wheels spin easily or if the brakes are holding and check for any grinding noises etc, like a shoe is rubbing on the drum
if they are holding then first check the pedal to see if it is returned completely so the pedal arm rubber bumper is against the firewall. next check to ensure the master cylinder has some freeplay on the pushrod. there is a return spring down there that can get weak and the weight of the pedal can be enough to overcome the spring, especially if everything is gummed up under there. it's why i asked about the pedal returning fully
the bushing where the pedal arm goes through the floor can also be a tight spot if it is worn and has moved around some. this is especially bad when the cab mounts have become worn out or the body has rusted and crumbed where the cab mounts fit up. some body movement can cause the pedal arm to bind where it goes through the floor
step on the brake pedal a few times. you should have a nice firm pedal that is sitting at the normal height when the brakes are applied, like not too far down towards the floor. keep the pedal pushed for a minute and ensure the pedal doesn't slowly keep dropping towards the floor. you shouldn't hear any strange clunking noises when you do this and if you do it could be the backing plates are worn where the shoes have rubbed against them and the shoes now get stuck in the divot creaked. when the brakes are activated they force the shoes out of those grooves and this causes a clunk. it also makes brake adjustment impossible sometimes. release the brakes now and recheck to ensure you don't have a tight wheel. if the brakes are binding then first check to ensure the pedal is acftually all the way back at the top against the rubber bumper, if good then try loosening a bleeder screw to see if the system is holding pressure. remember that a drum brake system is supposed to hold a couple pounds pressure to keep the wheel cylinder cups pressed against the cylinders and sealed. worse case scenario take a front wheel and drum off and check to see what you have.
let us know what you find, since you have our curiousity going. some pics would be great.

[nvrdone]

After looking over you post, I cant find if you replaced the brake shoes. If you did, did you replace all the brake springs? If so do the replacement ones match the old ones? Also, is the pedal return spring pulling the pedal all the way back against the floor board?
I had the same type of problem on my '49. After pulling my hair trying to figure it out, I found the parts house had given me the wrong spring kit. If the truck has sat along time the springs may have lost tension causing the shoes to not pull back from the drums when they get hot.
Good luck finding this one.

[studeclunker]

Thank you all for your helpful ideas.
I really do appreciate your taking the time to reply.

Totally manual brakes. Single brake cylinder under the floor, much the same as my Studebakers.

I have determined it is only the rears that are sticking. Will have to remember to take the brake kit with me to the other ranch so I can do a purge on the rear system. I wonder if I should replace the flexible hose as well? Likely would be a good idea anyway...

[leegreen]

With just one end sticking I'll revise everything I suggested before as it is not a failure from a central point.

Check the parking brake is releasing first, but odds are very good that you need to pull the drums and service everything to free it up.

[dsraven]

since it is single master cylnder system, the master cylinder runs ALL the brakes from a single circuit. that means if the rears are the only nes sticking then it is a rear brake issue. start bt first checking the easy stuff.
check for a leaky wheel seal that leaks axle lube out onto the brake shoes as this makes brakes sticky. usually easy to see as the backing plate is moist or oily/dirty looking from the back side.
check for a stuck park brake mechanism or a stuck cable thats not allowing the brakes to return.
check the rubber hose that goes from the frame to the axle to ensure it isn't cracked, restrictive or has a flap inside that works like a one way valve. check the steel line for heavy rust or pinched/kinked spots
then its the harder stuff that requires the wheels to come off, the brake drum to come off, and a visual inspectiom to see if something obvious is happening. a broken shoe return spring, linings that have become delaminated from the steel shoe or linings that are cracked, unrivetted from the steel shoe, etc.
check the wheel cylinders to ensure they are in good shape and not leaking or seized up. pull the rubber boot back and look inside there. moving the shoes should result in movement of the wheel cylinder pistons
check the backing plates for wear grooves that allow the shoes to slip into the grooves and not return like they should.
I would take a new rubber hose, some wheel cylinders, brake fluid, a set of shoes, a set of wheel cylinders, possibly some drums, some brake lube for where the shoes contact the backing plates, a hardware kit, some penetrating fluid and a bunch of tools including a propane torch to heat up stuff that doesn't wanna unseize and a one ,an brake bleeder. take lots, return what you don't need when youre done.

[studeclunker]

Originally Posted by leegreen

some ideas:

Brake pedal pivot is gummed up and not pulling back up all the way/spring is weak
Brake master is gummed up /rusted (but usually they would leak too)
All 4 wheels over adjusted
all 4 wheels have gummed up wheel cylinders
All 4 wheels have rusty brake shoe - backing plate contact areas

Does it have an old hydrovac booster under the cab somewhere? it may also be gummed up or the valve to control it is stuck

Hey, I found the booster! It's tucked underneath the battery tray. Sorry, my visual acuity isn't what it was forty years ago. I might move it out of there and use the mounting brackets from the '65 to put it on the firewall. Why they hid it under there really messed with my mind. You could just about hold a shindig in that engine compartment with just that little six in there. How do I check the valves you mentioned?

oh, it might take me a bit to respond as we're out in the boon tulies of Shasta County, Ca. and the phone is out (which takes out internet as well). I've been waiting a week to post this as it is.

[studeclunker]

Originally Posted by dsraven

1 does the truck do this all the time or just after it has been driven for a bit and the brakes have been warmed up?

A) take it for a spin to warm things up
jack up truck and block so all wheels are off the ground
check if the wheels spin easily or if the brakes are holding and check for any grinding noises etc, like a shoe is rubbing on the drum
if they are holding then first check the pedal to see if it is returned completely so the pedal arm rubber bumper is against the firewall.

2) next check to ensure the master cylinder has some freeplay on the pushrod. there is a return spring down there that can get weak and the weight of the pedal can be enough to overcome the spring, especially if everything is gummed up under there. it's why i asked about the pedal returning fully
the bushing where the pedal arm goes through the floor can also be a tight spot if it is worn and has moved around some. this is especially bad when the cab mounts have become worn out or the body has rusted and crumbed where the cab mounts fit up. some body movement can cause the pedal arm to bind where it goes through the floor
step on the brake pedal a few times. you should have a nice firm pedal that is sitting at the normal height when the brakes are applied, like not too far down towards the floor. keep the pedal pushed for a minute and ensure the pedal doesn't slowly keep dropping towards the floor. you shouldn't hear any strange clunking noises when you do this and if you do it could be the backing plates are worn where the shoes have rubbed against them and the shoes now get stuck in the divot creaked. when the brakes are activated they force the shoes out of those grooves and this causes a clunk. it also makes brake adjustment impossible sometimes. release the brakes now and recheck to ensure you don't have a tight wheel. if the brakes are binding then first check to ensure the pedal is acftually all the way back at the top against the rubber bumper, if good then try loosening a bleeder screw to see if the system is holding pressure. remember that a drum brake system is supposed to hold a couple pounds pressure to keep the wheel cylinder cups pressed against the cylinders and sealed. worse case scenario take a front wheel and drum off and check to see what you have.
let us know what you find, since you have our curiousity going. some pics would be great.

I was mistaken about the front brakes. They aren't sticking, just the rears.

1-A) The instant I use the brakes the rears won't release. Sometimes I can drive forward a few feet and back and they will release. Sometimes I can get underneath and bang on the backing plate. It clicks, and the brake releases.
However the next time I step on the brakes, they again won't release.

2) Yeah, there's sixty-five years of farm grunge everywhere under this truck. As soon as I can I will clean it all up. Right now I'm just trying to get the thing functional.

The brake pedal is functioning perfectly.
The Master cylinder and push rod seem to be working properly.

The brakes are soft. There is a lot of pedal movement. Partly because I backed the rears off in order to see if that would solve the releasing problem. They will be returned to the original position shortly as I have the left rear wheels and drum off. Looks good in there. On the surface anyway. Brake drum looks good and the shoes have a good bit of life still on them.

I have had an issue with a sand-like buildup inside the cylinders in my Studebakers ('50's and Larks, trucks and cars). Could this be an issue? The truck has been used on a ranch, previously, for decades. He was the second owner after Tehama County Road Services. It has mostly been used on country roads and around the ranch. It shows very little mileage, however the Speedometer & Odometer are no longer functional. So who knows, really?

I'm considering replacing both of the rear wheel cylinders, provided I can find any.

[mr48chev]

Rock Auto does show a couple of numbers for rear wheel cylinders that you may be able to use

Still if you can get them to quit hanging up by banging the backing plates I'd have to believe that the issue is simpler and quite simple.

What I am thinking is that the shoes have worn grooves or notches in the pads that the shoes ride on on the backing plates.

There should be about six pads where the shoes ride against the backing plate and with time they get grooves worn in them that match the edge of the shoes. can catch in and especially new shoes will catch in the grooves as the shoes that wore the grooves also wore and the rounded edges slide over the grooves easier.

First you have to take it apart and take the shoes off and then decide if you can get by with just taking a flap wheel on an angle grinder and slicking them off or if they need to be welded to fill up the grooves and then slicked off with a grinder. You want the pads to be smooth and close to the same height as original if you weld on it.

Then before you put the shoes back on you take a little dab of white lithium grease on the tip of your finger and smear it on the pads so the shoes will slide better.

[leegreen]

Originally Posted by studeclunker

How do I check the valves you mentioned?

You probably have a single circuit brake system? So if only the rear are locking on it is probably not the hydrovac.

If your plan is to drive this on the road (and it should be!) I'd do a complete brake service, from bare backing plates out. Including looking inside the wheel cylinders, if they are not leaking now a hone and new cups should be all you need. You could well find they are pretty gummed up and slow to release. That could be in addition to grooves on the contact points mr48chev mentions. The sand you find in the cylinders is likely aluminum oxide from the pistons

The hydrovac; in theory they are pretty simple. I have not worked on them enough to offer advice. A firewall mounted pedal, booster and dual master might be a good upgrade.

[dsraven]

I'm with mr48 and leegreen (I always call him LG for short)
pull the brakes off down to the backing plates so you can see what you have from the ground up. you may want to check parts availablity first for axle hub seal, brake shoes, brake hardware kit (the springs and hold downs as the springs may be weak or broken) and wheel cylinders. if it came off a farm I would bet the cylinders have been honed before to keep costs down. the old don't fix it if it aint broke theory and when it does get fixed it is usually a low budget on an old farm truck thats likely not the front runner anymore. go underneath and broom off the affected area and spray some penetrating fluid on the brake fittings to help in removal
stuff to have on hand
-jack stands or some surdy blocking to place under the axle but far enough inboard from the wheels so you can get at the brake lines, cylinder bolts,
etc
-brake shoes
-brake hardware kit
-wheel cylinders
-steel brake line from the cylinders to the "Y" on the axle (usually its a hose end). possibly the stuff with the spring on the outside of the line so it can be more easily bent without kinking. do a quick measure to see what size of line you need and what size of ends are on each end. sometimes the nut can be a little different size on one end
-possibly a line bender of some sort to get the bends in the new line (if required) without kinking the lne
-axle hub seals for each side, I assume they are full floating style. also axle gaskets if you can find them. gasket metaerial works. lots of guys use silicone but I like to fill the hub cavities with some pil before I slip the axles in because it takes time for the oil to run down the axle tubes to the hubs so the hubs can easily be run dry if they aren't lubed first. this usually creates some spillage on the gasket surface and silicone is likely not gonna grip in the spill area
-gear oil. to fill the diff after and to put some in the full floating hub bearing cavities. this would be a great time to change diff oil as well. I recomend to use the stock regular old fashioned gear oil as sometimes the swap to a synthetic, like the parts guys recommend, will also soften up the other seals in the housing and cause them to leak in a bit
-a couple of styro cups to slip into the axle housing once the thing is apart. this keeps that constant gear oil drip from dripping all over the work area
-a jug of brake fluid
-a flexible brake hose from the frame to the diff
-oil drain pans, one for each side
-a one man bleeder. google it, you can make one
-brake grease for the backing plate to shoe contact areas
-degreaser
-tools to knock out the old hub seal
-possibly snap ring plieers to remove the bearing from one end (not sure if these hubs would have that but you def wanna check the bearing surfaces for wear, pitting, greying, etc
-wire brush for drill or angle grinder so you can clean up the backing plates well
-possibly some paint for the backing plates once cleaned up
-respirator for the dissassembly time so you are not breathing in brake dust. it is cancer causing
-hand held pump sprayer to stand back and spray the brakes to wet them down once the drums are initially off
-brake shoe adjustment tool
-hub bearing grease (I always pack the bearings to be sure they are lubed properly and won't run dry on initial test drive
-nitrile gloves. nothing stinks longer than gear oil and brake fluid is really hard on the skin. even though I have pretty caloused hands it still eats up the skin. it likes moisture so it drys up your hands
-hub nut socket to fit the full floating axle nut. remember one side may be reverse threaded
-some of the full floaters have a lock washer that is used between two axle nuts. it has tangs that get bent over the nut flats to the nuts don't come loose. you may or may not have that. some use a keyway with a small snap ring holding that from falling out
-possibly a speedi sleeve for the axle housing where the seal has worn a groove. there may be a better seal available that turns within itself to stop this in the future. they can be sensitive to install straight on t hub so use care if thats the case and don't move the hub inward-outward too much when assemblng or the seal can be damaged
-maybe need some wheel studs if the drum is comng off as some drums are held on that way and the studs get damaged when getting them out

i say buy everything you could need and take back what you don't. thats if you're buying local of course. sometimes it makes sense to get it all apart and find out what you have first