Buyer beware

[70STOVEBOLT]

Originally Posted by Dave K.

One other observation--that spray on beautifier--anyone noticed a lot of cars on eBay and other sites have this? A good pressure wash, let dry and then commence to spraying. It standard fare at these smaller shops trying to spin for big bucks.....

A lot of used car dealers do that as part of their standard detail job before they put a car/truck on the lot.

[im4darush]

So this brings up an interesting question about LWB - SWB conversions. Some have explained what the correct way is. What I have not seen folks talk about are complete cab swaps. Back in the day when these truck were much more common, I would have to think that doing a complete swap was much more of an option as opposed to today due to availability of trucks/parts.

Lets define cab swap. I see this as a complete cab with matching VIN, SPID and data plate being set onto a SWB frame and retaining all the factory equipment as outlined in the SPID. What you end up with is an uncut original frame and bed used with a cab where everything is right. I personally am not sure if these trucks had the VIN stamped into the frame/bed, but honestly cant say that I would care if everything else was done right. The SPID would obviously still say 127 but the truck itself would really be no different than any other SWB that rolled off the line. Yes, quality of work matters, and it is understandable that if it was cobbled together where no panel lined up and everything was off, the whole thing would look like poo. But in good hands, I would have to think THIS approach is the next best thing to a 115 SPID factory truck.

Lots of these were wrecked back in the day. Finding a nice SWB truck with a straight frame probably wasn't too hard. And swapping everything over from one frame to another is not rocket science either. Paint it the correct SPID colors and you have a factory frame short bed with all the correct equipment as per the SPID. Keep the glove box closed and you wont see the '127'

The purist will probably disagree I am sure, but I would have no issue buying a well put together truck of this nature.

[dubds10]

Originally Posted by FirstOwner69

The bed wood is not correct. It's been replaced and should look mint. Original wood bed floors were, I believe always, painted body color on top and were black on the bottom.

Yeah I was referring to the bedsides not the wood. But there's enough odd details about this truvk to fully question it even if the welding job was done properly.

[dubds10]

Originally Posted by im4darush

So this brings up an interesting question about LWB - SWB conversions. Some have explained what the correct way is. What I have not seen folks talk about are complete cab swaps. Back in the day when these truck were much more common, I would have to think that doing a complete swap was much more of an option as opposed to today due to availability of trucks/parts.

Lets define cab swap. I see this as a complete cab with matching VIN, SPID and data plate being set onto a SWB frame and retaining all the factory equipment as outlined in the SPID. What you end up with is an uncut original frame and bed used with a cab where everything is right. I personally am not sure if these trucks had the VIN stamped into the frame/bed, but honestly cant say that I would care if everything else was done right. The SPID would obviously still say 127 but the truck itself would really be no different than any other SWB that rolled off the line. Yes, quality of work matters, and it is understandable that if it was cobbled together where no panel lined up and everything was off, the whole thing would look like poo. But in good hands, I would have to think THIS approach is the next best thing to a 115 SPID factory truck.

Lots of these were wrecked back in the day. Finding a nice SWB truck with a straight frame probably wasn't too hard. And swapping everything over from one frame to another is not rocket science either. Paint it the correct SPID colors and you have a factory frame short bed with all the correct equipment as per the SPID. Keep the glove box closed and you wont see the '127'

The purist will probably disagree I am sure, but I would have no issue buying a well put together truck of this nature.

That would be better than a chopped frame & bed of course, but paperwork would still say it's a 1/2T LWB or 3/4T LWB or a 4x4 LWB etc. Then you may have to deal with that if anything ever happened to it. Most regi's state what the truck is to match the VIN so you'd need to then have it inspected and paperwork changed to reflect what the truck really is. For me I still prefer an original truck nobody has hacked up. If I'm buying a custom built truck it may not matter so much though.

[im4darush]

In FL every out of state title requires a VIN inspection. They check to make sure the VIN on title, matches the VIN on cab. Both would match so I don't see any issues. They never get under any car to look for numbers on the frame. I have purchased a good 10 cars out of state and every time has been a comparison of title VIN, to VIN under the glass or on cab if its an older truck. Would be pretty cool to see the DMV lady crawling on all 4's looking for the frame VIN.

Are there actually states out there that will not issue a title unless they confirm that paper title, matches cab, matches frame?

[dubds10]

Originally Posted by im4darush

In FL every out of state title requires a VIN inspection. They check to make sure the VIN on title, matches the VIN on cab. Both would match so I don't see any issues. They never get under any car to look for numbers on the frame. I have purchased a good 10 cars out of state and every time has been a comparison of title VIN, to VIN under the glass or on cab if its an older truck. Would be pretty cool to see the DMV lady crawling on all 4's looking for the frame VIN.

Are there actually states out there that will not issue a title unless they confirm that paper title, matches cab, matches frame?

The VIN & Title might match, but they wont match what the person actually sees. That's the point lol If I take my '72 K10 LWB Titled truck to get inspected but it really looks like a '68 1/2T SWB the inspector and insurance agent is going to question me lol If I got into an accident they'd really wonder and my premiums were actually based on what the VIN/Title states not what the truck actually is so it could then be void. In my area we don't mess around unless it's done 100% with the DMV.

And yes the frame numbers can and will be checked if anything seems off. I work in the fraud investigation business and lots of stuff gets looked at that some people don't even think of.

[im4darush]

The comparison I am making is between the same type...aka 1/2 ton. If you swap everything from a 1/2 ton frame to another 1/2 ton frame, it wont look any different. A 72 cab on another 1/2 ton frame (maybe even a 72 if one was found) would look no different.

I am not talking about putting a 67 1/2 ton titled cab on a 72 1 ton frame where the visual would obviously not be right.

[dubds10]

Originally Posted by im4darush

The comparison I am making is between the same type...aka 1/2 ton. If you swap everything from a 1/2 ton frame to another 1/2 ton frame, it wont look any different. A 72 cab on another 1/2 ton frame (maybe even a 72 if one was found) would look no different.

I am not talking about putting a 67 1/2 ton titled cab on a 72 1 ton frame where the visual would obviously not be right.

Yeah I know I was just making the obvious point. However, it still makes sense when talking about going from a long bed to a short bed. Depending on the Registration process and State/Province etc the registration may indicate the size of truck and usually the GVW. Visually you'll see a 1/2T SWB, but on paper it may still read as a 1/2T LWB. Obviously most places and people probably don't look into those details, but in some areas it may be the case.

Now using another SWB cab on a SWB frame with proper Title then nobody would ever know the difference unless they checked the frame numbers of course. Or if they knew the difference between the frames like using a '68 frame with a '72 cab you could easily tell apart. I've parted out SWB and LWB trucks to guys so they could build a rust free SWB truck, however, all my personal trucks have always been all original or restored to original except our '57 which is modified, yet original frame/cab/VIN etc.

[NoNeck]

My problem is not with the truck, it really looks sharp. It is with the seller's description.

We have a factory short box C/10 for sale at the XXXXXXXXXXXX. According to the VIN matched option sticker in the glove box this truck left factory with a short box, wood bed, A/C, 350 engine, automatic transmission, finished in Yellow and white. Check out the original Cheyenne trim kit that runs down the side and back to the tail gate.

Why keep saying "Factory" short box?

Why point out that the VIN and the SPID prove that it is a SWB? You can't read them.

Why point out the original Cheyenne trim "kit"?

The original thread title sums it up pretty good. BUYER BEWARE!

POP

[Gainsb]

Great discussion -- learned a lot of about what to look for.

Should buyer beware if there isn't a SPID in the glove -- I ran across this recently the vin number matches how the truck looks, but the SPID is long gone. Not sure if it go removed for a repaint or if there is something devious going on.

[dubds10]

Originally Posted by NoNeck

My problem is not with the truck, it really looks sharp. It is with the seller's description.



Why keep saying "Factory" short box?

Why point out that the VIN and the SPID prove that it is a SWB? You can't read them.

Why point out the original Cheyenne trim "kit"?

The original thread title sums it up pretty good. BUYER BEWARE!

POP

That's what bugs me the most out of all these "fake" trucks lol It's ok to build a truck however you want but at least don't misrepresent it when selling. Unfortunately too many guys are doing that these days it seems.

[70STOVEBOLT]

Apparently, the guy realized it was being misrepresented and that is why the ebay listing was cancelled. I emailed the guy through the second link and he emailed me back this afternoon. Here is the email correspondence:

From: "mark"

This truck appears to be a cut-down longbed, and also the VIN tag on the b-pillar shows it to be a 6cyl 1971 truck.
Lastly, the SPID shows the wheelbase at 127 (longbed) and the model number also calls it a longbed (CS10934). If a guy knew what to look for it would be obvious that this is not an original shortbed truck. There are other clues also, but you get the idea. I presume this is why the ebay ad was removed? This message is purely for educational purposes.

Hi Mark,

My partner purchased and fixed up this truck. I never checked the VIN's and he didn't either other than to match the title to the B pillar. Agreed that we have a mess on our hands. The VIN reads as a '71, agreed and we even have a different VIN on the door. The glove box vin looks to be purposely scratched. This truck appears to be a pile of parts. Too bad as it's a great runner and has a nice body. We did remove it from eBay until we can clear things up. Once I realized that we had a mess I wasn't comfortable keeping the auction going. Weird that the title reads '72 but VIN is '71. Last issued in the '90's That's Idaho for you. I'm going to have the State inspector stop by and we will probably get the title reissued as a '71. Either way we are backing away from any claims to original. I'm OK making an honest mistake and knowing that in the future we need to do more due diligence. I'm not OK intentionally misrepresenting a classic.

Thanks for the email and all the best,


Shep
Sun Valley Auto Club, Sales

[dubds10]

Good to see the seller be candid about it. Too many sellers get offended when you try to educate them, but it appears it was an honest mistake on a flip not intentional like others have been.

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by 70STOVEBOLT

...
Hi Mark,

My partner purchased and fixed up this truck. I never checked the VIN's and he didn't either other than to match the title to the B pillar. Agreed that we have a mess on our hands. The VIN reads as a '71, agreed and we even have a different VIN on the door. The glove box vin looks to be purposely scratched. This truck appears to be a pile of parts. Too bad as it's a great runner and has a nice body. We did remove it from eBay until we can clear things up. Once I realized that we had a mess I wasn't comfortable keeping the auction going. Weird that the title reads '72 but VIN is '71. Last issued in the '90's That's Idaho for you. I'm going to have the State inspector stop by and we will probably get the title reissued as a '71. Either way we are backing away from any claims to original. I'm OK making an honest mistake and knowing that in the future we need to do more due diligence. I'm not OK intentionally misrepresenting a classic.

Thanks for the email and all the best,


Shep
Sun Valley Auto Club, Sales

This is substantially similar to the reply I received Tuesday, February 23, 2016 5:48 AM, though far more expanded and polished. In fact it appears they went and checked the frame numbers in the middle of drafting the reply to me. This was in response to an email sent Monday at the culmination of my "by the numbers" research for Tony.

Anyway I was thanked for bringing a number of inconsistencies to the seller's attention thus saving him a refund and shipping expenses. At that time he stated an intent to close the auction. Time will tell if this becomes a "shop truck" or possibly a "fully disclosed" driver for a proud new owner.


To those that think it doesn't matter think again, this is but one path stolen trucks and parts become whole and titled.

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by mike16

the semigloss black paint all over the bottom of the truck is suspect. it origonal ? but its also very obvious that it was sprayed on later and all over everything and from only one angle.

From what I understand the underneath from factory is satin. At least for the frame it is. The frame etc. were definitely painted on this truck, and poorly.

On another note: looks like SS has chimed in. Yes he was the source for realignment and education. Always a great source for information.

[Coley]

The truck looks like a nice driver for someone who isn't too worried about the pedigree stuff.
However, at that pricing...you are entering into pedigree territory in my opinion.
If this truck was say....$9500?...that might be more in keeping with where its at with respect to the controversial stuff that isn't right on it.
That said, I think the weird panhard rod mount might be because that differential came out of a leaf spring truck rather than a trailing arm truck and to my knowledge the leaf spring diffs didn't have the mount hence the added bracket....correct me if I'm wrong guys.
If that is correct, then there has been a little more 'non-original' work put into the truck and the frame...and the diff.
It looks like the sellers have identified and admitted the problems so hopefully they price it fairly and it goes to a good home.
All Good
Coley

[Grumpy old man]

You have to wonder did they take down the ebay auction because they were educated or Caught ? It's a car dealer not just any Joe Smoe off the street ,They knew from the start it wasn't correct it just reeks of used car dealer slush. I highly doubt they will lower the price to reflect what it really is ,That truck will just get sold off the lot or on Craigslist to somebody who either doesn't know better or just doesn't care ..