Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by magwakeenercew2jh

Uh-oh!

You mean *this*?

700.00$ shipped, no more guesswork.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/W.../#.VDTZSE10wu4

[Mike_The_Grad]

I just want to say thank you to everyone who has taken the time out of there own lives to respond to my situation. I am absorbing everything like a sponge. I realize the pix I posted aren't really good quality, but that's only because of the pixel limit I am allowed to upload per pic. The actual photos I'm trying to up load are in full 1080 p HD. So if anyone wants to give me an email address I will be happy to send better quality photos. The ones in my post are almost incomparable.

[Mike_The_Grad]

Ok. I did use I new harbor freight tap on my intake manifold bolts because they went threw oil galley. I know how a tap works and did observe chips in the tap reliefs. But Im pretty sure it was only carbon build up...

[Mike_The_Grad]

I mean head bolt holes for intake bolts.

[Steeveedee]

I would not recommend using steel shim gaskets on a used (or even rebuilt) engine unless the block and heads have been verified flat. They work well on new engines, but shifting over time and high thermal stress from overheating can cause enough shift that they will not seal, right off the bat. You have a crack on that cylinder head, which needs to be dealt with.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Steeveedee

I would not recommend using steel shim gaskets on a used (or even rebuilt) engine unless the block and heads have been verified flat. They work well on new engines, but shifting over time and high thermal stress from overheating can cause enough shift that they will not seal, right off the bat. You have a crack on that cylinder head, which needs to be dealt with.

Quoting myself here: " Make sure your heads are good and flat no more than .003" over a distance of 3" before you assemble it, and if they are not, get them milled or ground".

"If everything is straight, flat and not cracked, put it back together with a cheap set of new head bolts and fel-pro 1094 steel shim head gaskets as long as the pistons are at least .025" below deck".

"Oh crap is that a crack or two between the valve seats on the bottom picture"?

Quoting magwakeenercew2jh: "Uh-oh! You mean *this*? Followed by picture of cracked head.

All quotes on this thread.

[Steeveedee]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Quoting myself here: " Make sure your heads are good and flat no more than .003" over a distance of 3" before you assemble it, and if they are not, get them milled or ground".

"If everything is straight, flat and not cracked, put it back together with a cheap set of new head bolts and fel-pro 1094 steel shim head gaskets as long as the pistons are at least .025" below deck".

"Oh crap is that a crack or two between the valve seats on the bottom picture"?

Quoting magwakeenercew2jh: "Uh-oh! You mean *this*? Followed by picture of cracked head.

All quotes on this thread.

Hmmm, welcome to the intertubes, where very few may have read every post you may have made in a thread, which in this case I did not. Don't get too butt hurt by my not laboring over your every post. I won't be the only one.

[Mike_The_Grad]

So after a crazy weekend, I was able to find out some interesting news. I cleaned up the head surface of the drivers side where I had the gasket blowout on cylinder #7. I wasn't able to see any blatant cracking or warpage. I used a straight edge and flat feeler gauge with .003 indicator along with a background light source. I measured vertically and horizontally across the entire head to block mating surface, not to sure how to measure diagonally across combustion chambers... There is no doubt in my mind and also my Buddy's that this thing is flat. My friend recommended his ex-bosses opinion. This guy has been racing and building dragsters since the late 60's early 70's. Also the fact that my friend has a certain negative opinion about him as a employer, but acknowledges his mechanical ability speaks to me. He confirmed I have 2.02 heads. He felt that no internal damage had been done to the heads themselves. He HIGHLY recommends that I pull the engine and place it on a stand, so I can pull crankshaft and pistons to replace rings and main bearings. Then he can inspect cam, lifters, and cylinder walls. He said if everything checks out, do a light hone by hand and replace valve guide seals then put it back together. All in all I think its good news. Considering it still will be a few weeks til its back on the road. After I told him the truck was sitting for about 8 yrs. In my driveway,with just water no coolant in it, and no hood or even tarp for about the last two of those years that that's exactly why this happend. Live and learn is what I'm gathering from all of this...
Pictures: head gasket with failure, some type of scratch on number #7 cylinder above piston tdc that is pretty close to where the gasket failed

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Steeveedee

Hmmm, welcome to the intertubes, where very few may have read every post you may have made in a thread, which in this case I did not. Don't get too butt hurt by my not laboring over your every post. I won't be the only one.

Not an expert on butt hurt, don't know what that means. But obviously you know something I don't.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Mike_The_Grad

So after a crazy weekend, I was able to find out some interesting news. I cleaned up the head surface of the drivers side where I had the gasket blowout on cylinder #7. I wasn't able to see any blatant cracking or warpage. I used a straight edge and flat feeler gauge with .003 indicator along with a background light source. I measured vertically and horizontally across the entire head to block mating surface, not to sure how to measure diagonally across combustion chambers... There is no doubt in my mind and also my Buddy's that this thing is flat. My friend recommended his ex-bosses opinion. This guy has been racing and building dragsters since the late 60's early 70's. Also the fact that my friend has a certain negative opinion about him as a employer, but acknowledges his mechanical ability speaks to me. He confirmed I have 2.02 heads. He felt that no internal damage had been done to the heads themselves. He HIGHLY recommends that I pull the engine and place it on a stand, so I can pull crankshaft and pistons to replace rings and main bearings. Then he can inspect cam, lifters, and cylinder walls. He said if everything checks out, do a light hone by hand and replace valve guide seals then put it back together. All in all I think its good news. Considering it still will be a few weeks til its back on the road. After I told him the truck was sitting for about 8 yrs. In my driveway,with just water no coolant in it, and no hood or even tarp for about the last two of those years that that's exactly why this happend. Live and learn is what I'm gathering from all of this...
Pictures: head gasket with failure, some type of scratch on number #7 cylinder above piston tdc that is pretty close to where the gasket failed

Hey Mike The Grad: Is the picture posted by magwakeenercew2jh of the cracked valve seats a picture of your head?

[Mike_The_Grad]

Mechanicalman: yes it is a picture of my passenger side head. But I think what may appear to be a crack might actually be carbon build up stuck on there from me cleaning the head. I only really had time to clean the driver side this past weekend. On Friday I will clean the passenger side up and post pics.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Mike_The_Grad

Mechanicalman: yes it is a picture of my passenger side head. But I think what may appear to be a crack might actually be carbon build up stuck on there from me cleaning the head. I only really had time to clean the driver side this past weekend. On Friday I will clean the passenger side up and post pics.

Might be a good idea to take the heads to a good machine shop for a steam clean and a magna-flux just to be sure.

Make sure you inspect the lifters, and make sure they don't get mixed up as to what hole they came out of. Post us a picture of the worst one.

That "scratch" on the upper part of the cyl wall just below the deck is likely the result of coolant dis-lodging a piece of carbon and the carbon getting suck between the top of the piston on the side above the top ring and the cyl wall. You should be able to visualize the top ring if not spray with penetrating oil, blow it out and clean it out if nec. The piston ring needs to be free and floating in order to seal. Don't scrape or wire wheel the pistons (you can jam the extra carbon onto the rings into the grooves and stick them), just spray them with penetrating oil or douse them with top engine cleaner and let them soak. Wipe it out before you install the heads then the pistons will self-clean when you start the engine.

A good trick is to coat the cyl walls with grease, then rotate the engine and the rings will push the grease to the top carrying the dirt off the top of the rings with it then simply wipe it out with the piston down.

I wouldn't pull the engine out just yet if you don't think you put it in a hydraulic lock and the #7 top ring is free (the piston should move independent of the ring and the ring should stay against the cyl wall). Looks like the piston is stamped "30"? Probably been re-bored.

I'd be more optimistic of the bottom end than I would be of the heads, but hope you get away with just a pair of head gaskets.

[Mike_The_Grad]

Mechanical man: yes the engine has been totally rebuilt. I think in '92. At the 300k mark. And its got 74k on the rebuild. The work was done by my ex's grandfather. He had a shop here in town for quit a while. From what I hear he has a damn good reputation. I don't doubt any of the work he's done on any car. I know the crank is .10 under. My financial situation may change here shortly, so I'm thinking of taking advantage of the situation and do a little more than just change gaskets. The only true thing that's hurting me is being without a vehicle. And the more I send to the shop the longer the turn around is...

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Mike_The_Grad

Mechanical man: yes the engine has been totally rebuilt. I think in '92. At the 300k mark. And its got 74k on the rebuild. The work was done by my ex's grandfather. He had a shop here in town for quit a while. From what I hear he has a damn good reputation. I don't doubt any of the work he's done on any car. I know the crank is .10 under. My financial situation may change here shortly, so I'm thinking of taking advantage of the situation and do a little more than just change gaskets. The only true thing that's hurting me is being without a vehicle. And the more I send to the shop the longer the turn around is...

No reason to believe the bearings are bad, the oil didn't get much water for very long at all, make sure the rings are free on # 7. Turn the heads upside down and pour some trans oil into the ports onto the underside of the valves to check for leaky valves before you take them apart.

Any chance anything on the valve seats looks remotely like a crack, send the heads to the shop. Valve seals, for sure; I'd put the "umbrella" seals on it along with the stock "o-ring" on the intake only. Don't put the o-rings on the exhaust valve if you are using the umbrellas, they stop the oil flow to the umbrella and it gets too hot. Same reason the o-ring burns up on the exhaust and fails, but if the umbrella gets the oil over it, it will last a long time. The stock exhaust valve faces are way too thick next to the stem and retain too much heat.

No advantage to replacing rings and honing unless the rings are stuck, and then I'd just do it on #7 ONLY if it needed it, it just increases piston to cylinder wall clearance and will decrease the life of the engine.

Because you have the intake off, do what I said for the lifters, it's too easy. After sitting outside for years with no tarp, a lifter could have gotten sticky and might be on it's way out. You don't want to take it apart again after you do the head gaskets. You don't want to see bad lifters/cam, but if you have a bad lifter/cam, you want to see it.

If the heads are cracked, replace them. Don't let the shop talk you into a crack repair.

If you think the heads need magnaflux test, they pass, and if your g-dad in law put new valve guides in it, have the shop grind the seats and put a "head improvement kit" in it, you can do it yourself if you have or can get a valve spring compressor. Very reasonable, come with everything you need, come in both valve sizes. Measure the valves first, I think you have the 1.94 but measure to be sure. Get the cheapest head kit in your valve size, you don't need higher pressure valve springs and if the cam is stock you don't want to shim the springs.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/H.../#.VD6_V010wu4

http://www.competitionproducts.com/C...s/products/27/

If you use a head improvement kit, you won't need or be able to put the o-rings on the intake valves.

New head bolts, 1094 head gaskets.

It is what it is. I'm telling you the cheapest, fastest way to fix right. Feel free to ask me anything.

[Mike_The_Grad]

Mechanicalman: I definitely appreciate your input. The way I look at it is, the more information available to me will help me make the correct choices. Everyone isn't right, and everyone isn't wrong. I will pass along the opinion and see what I hear in return. And yes, I agree with you about doing this again in the near future. I don't want to! It seems as though everything I've done up til this point I've already had to redo. But that's the fun about learning right?! Pfff.... I'm about getting it done right the first time. But that can't always be when I try and do everything myself for the first time. I love to learn, just not at the price of doing everything twice. It is what it is, and I'm much smarter now than I was 6 months ago.

[magwakeenercew2jh]

Originally Posted by Mike_The_Grad

Mechanicalman: I definitely appreciate your input. ...snip... It is what it is, and I'm much smarter now than I was 6 months ago.

HIJACK RANT: ON

Hell, I'm sixty-eight and have been working on American cars and bikes (and some BMW's thrown in the mix) since I was fourteen.

All I can say is that thanks to guys like mechanicalman, Locdoc, VetteVet, and so many others that SHOULD BE NAMED,
I'm much smarter about these puzzles than I was a few days ago. And a few months ago. And a few years ago.

Now, when it comes to taking good advice, I still need some work. It's a hard lesson to learn at any age to step back and
take another look while those with more experience than I offer up their selfless and precious help.

The real deal, in life as well as in this stuff, is getting out of one's own head. And then practicing humility while paying it
forward.

The people on this Forum are still teaching this old dog.

HIJACK RANT: OFF

[Mike_The_Grad]

Magweekeenercew2jh: 100% in agreement. Even though I don't really let others on to how much I don't know, I will be the first one to admit when I'm wrong. Mostly because, I don't want to give someone else the satisfaction in knowing that they called me on my bull$#!+...lol. I still don't know what I'm doing but I have an idea. In the short time I've been a member I've searched through countless threads for hours, thinking that I have a problem no ones EVER had. Boy am I wrong. Its comforting to know I'm not the first, and definitely not the last. So I try to pay it forward, even if my two cents ain't worth the time it took to type it.
Below is comparison for the amount of work I have put into my truck. All work done by me in my garage. (Except carb rebuild,to easy to screw up...) Top:Jan.'14,middle:mar.'14,bottom: may'14

[Mike_The_Grad]

Hey everyone,finally an update to my situation. I took my heads and block to the machine shop. The machinist told me my heads needed to be replaced,they both had been welded and guide inserts used. He recommended that I get a new set of heads. Easy for him to say...lol. My block was magna fluxed and everything checked out ok. I had a ridge on all cylinders. Which meant I had to bore it. I already had .30 over pistons. So I needed a new set of .40 over with rings. My cam had a lot of wear,as did my lifters. So I contacted comp cams and the recommended a grind that suits my needs. I ordered a whole kit from them, cam, lifters,timing set,valve springs,locks,retainers. Machinist also pressed in new can bearings for me. As I was explaining this to my parts guy, he told me he could get me a set of reman 882 heads fully assembled with warranty for $350. He even put my aftermarket springs on for me. Total price for block work came out to $220(hot tank/flux,bore,cam bearing install,light crankshaft polish,piston swap,and deck it.) I also picked up full gasket set,new brass plugs,main/connecting rod bearings. Waiting for new oil pump (from corvette,higher pressure same volume.), and new balancer. My pushrods are still good. Yesterday I fully stripped all paint from block cleaned out every possible orifice, blew it all out real good with compressed air, wiped all cylinders with oil, installed and checked main bearing clearances with plastigauge, everything was in spec. Then wrapped it in engine bag til next weekend. I'll have to pick up piston ring expander and piston sleeve to install and check connecting rod clearances, but I'm going to install cam first before I finally install crankshaft just to have access and leverage to not dent anything. Its taken a while, but its on the right path to be back on the road soon.

[Mike_The_Grad]

*Update*
So, almost 2 years later and quite a 2 years it has been. I got everything back together and on the road.

1st: turns out I had a reverse rotation chrome aluminum water pump intended for a serpentine drive system. Found this out in March of 2015 while I was replacing my drive belts and noticed that my water pump pulley was growling when turn in normal operating direction. Not wanting to take any chances I picked up a cast iron O.E. water pump. Immediately noticed a drop in temperature and steadying of the indicator. Also determined I had air trapped in the cooling system. I'm almost positive these two things compounded together caused my blown head gasket.
After almost a year of troubleshooting a lower than normal vacuum signal issue, I'm glad to say I've got it all straightened out. I have a steady 19.5" Hg. Reading on my gauge at idle. Multiple things happening at the same time made it pretty tough to discern what was the cause. Ultimately, I replaced my distributor,(leading to my discovery that the distributor mainshaft was bent slightly.) I rebuilt my carburetor myself after experiencing flooding issues due to a saturated float.
I replaced the stock "hot slot" cast iron intake manifold with an Edelbrock 2101 performer intake manifold.( I hadn't properly sealed the rear block between the intake and block causing a constant oil leak...also my O.E.M. oil pressure sending line leaked at the block adapter,a new copper line kit from autometer fixed that.)
Two sets of Taylor spiro-pro spark plug wires and three sets of spark plugs
Plus a few other things along the way have got me to where I am today, about 13k miles and running great.
Now I am preparing for a overhaul of my th350. It leaks out of practically every seal possible and is at least 20 years since anything other than filter and pan gasket swaps have been done. It is inevitable and anticipated to say the least.

[yuccales]

Glad you got her up and running. With these old trucks you will never say " I have nothing to do" on a weekend!