47-59 58 Apache 38 doesn't want to start

[studeclunker]

Just when you think it's fixed...

Okay, it won't start now. Refused to go yesterday and had to run my errands in the Boss' '97. Will have to again today. It started, ran like a top for about two minutes and died. Now the old man refuses to start. It's getting fuel, air, but spark... Kinda hard to tell. I can't get the jacket to slide up the wire to check the thing. Tried inserting a screwdriver up in there and setting it against the battery hold-down getting nothing. All this cranking to get the thing started first thing seems to be having its toll on the starter motor as it seems to be getting weaker and running the battery down rather quickly.

This starter is not one I am thinking will be widely available.

So, I figure a new coil is in order too?

Yeah, it has been my experience, takes about six months to work all the bugs out of these things.

[dsraven]

stock engine?
check fuses
check points, distributor cap and rotor
check for power at the coil
if you plan to keep it stock and the engine is in good shape it wouldn't hurt to do a tune up on it, plugs, wires, cap rotor, points and condensor, possibly a coil and ballast resistor
if you have a starter/alternator rebuild place close by you may be better served there for a starter than a rebuilt one from a parts house. it seems the quality of the rebuilt stuff has gone downhill sharply, like off a cliff kinda downhill.
these starters are tough but don't tollerate long crank times and overheating

[mr48chev]

We need some vehicle history here. What engine, and then what if anything was done before this no start thing happened?

Meaning= is this a truck that you have been driving and all the sudden it doesn't start?

Did you do any work on it before the no start condition happened?

Did you perhaps leave the key on for while lately?

First step is to Charge the battery. Nothing works well if the battery is run down.

Second is to get out the test light or multi meter and see if you have power to the + post on the coil when you have the key on.

Check and make sure that the resistor bypass wire from the starter to the coil is hooked up. It goes to the R post on V8 starters or key start starters and the post on the side of the foot stomp starter switch.

If you have power to the coil with the key on turn the key off and pop the cap off the distributor and check the points. either bump the engine over with the starter or by hand to see if they are opening and closing.
When you check the gap of the points make sure that the rubbing block on the contact arm (red arrow) is right on the tip of one of the lobes of the distributor cam. Look at the contacts to make sure that they aren't burned or crudded up. Gap should be right at .016

I am not a fan of the nonsense of taking a screwdriver and opening the points to see if a spark jumps across them as a spark is not supposed to jump across them when they open. when the points open the ground connection for the coils is broken and the low voltage from the coil should go through the condenser and not jump the points.

URL=https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/w71/mr48chev/(edited)_91c17ff9-7197-47b0-b262-2487e0b09d7b.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds][/URL]

[studeclunker]

Originally Posted by dsraven

stock engine?
check fuses
check points, distributor cap and rotor
check for power at the coil
if you plan to keep it stock and the engine is in good shape it wouldn't hurt to do a tune up on it, plugs, wires, cap rotor, points and condensor, possibly a coil and ballast resistor
if you have a starter/alternator rebuild place close by you may be better served there for a starter than a rebuilt one from a parts house. it seems the quality of the rebuilt stuff has gone downhill sharply, like off a cliff kinda downhill.
these starters are tough but don't tollerate long crank times and overheating

Yes, 235-6
I have yet to find a fuse block. It seems to have inline fuses and I haven't found all of them.
Everything inside the cap seems fine.
The ballast is mounted on the firewall on the opposite side of the bay from the coil and distributor (driver's side).
I'm not very good with doing tuneups. Usually I screw things up worse than they were before. I mean, I can gap plugs properly. However the points and such usually escape me.

Thanks for the pointer on the starter. We do have a fellow locally who does this, however getting him to do the work is a PITA. I really don't like doing business with him. All the same the the starter does seem to be getting a lot weaker. It's rather unenthusiastic about getting things going.

The fuel pump doesn't like to hold the fuel and thus must pump all the way up to the carb, or I have to prime things. However even that doesn't work right now. I don't think it's a fuel problem.

[studeclunker]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

We need some vehicle history here. What engine, and then what if anything was done before this no start thing happened?

Meaning= is this a truck that you have been driving and all the sudden it doesn't start?

Did you do any work on it before the no start condition happened?

Did you perhaps leave the key on for while lately?

First step is to Charge the battery. Nothing works well if the battery is run down.

Second is to get out the test light or multi meter and see if you have power to the + post on the coil when you have the key on.

Check and make sure that the resistor bypass wire from the starter to the coil is hooked up. It goes to the R post on V8 starters or key start starters and the post on the side of the foot stomp starter switch.

If you have power to the coil with the key on turn the key off and pop the cap off the distributor and check the points. either bump the engine over with the starter or by hand to see if they are opening and closing.
When you check the gap of the points make sure that the rubbing block on the contact arm (red arrow) is right on the tip of one of the lobes of the distributor cam. Look at the contacts to make sure that they aren't burned or crudded up. Gap should be right at .016

I am not a fan of the nonsense of taking a screwdriver and opening the points to see if a spark jumps across them as a spark is not supposed to jump across them when they open. when the points open the ground connection for the coils is broken and the low voltage from the coil should go through the condenser and not jump the points.

URL=https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/w71/mr48chev/(edited)_91c17ff9-7197-47b0-b262-2487e0b09d7b.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds][/URL]

bone stock 235-6 from factory.
Yes, this is a truck that I have been driving. I have been priming the carb because the fuel pump is not holding the prime when off. It is a recent acquisition though. with a touch of priming, it has been starting right up. However now it doesn't.
Also, it has been sitting a lot over the past few years. It has been started and run a bit on a regular basis.

Resistor Bypass wire? I suppose this is why I need a proper manual for this truck. What colour is it? Looks like I'll have to trace down the wires in and out of the resistor and see where they go. Studebakers are so much more straightforward than Chevys.

No, I haven't left the key on unattended at any time. Yes, I do know better.
Yes, I have been charging the battery and do so after each time it has been tried. When the truck actually has started, the Alternator (the one modification to the motor) has more than adequately recharged the battery.

[dsraven]

if you have the stock 235 starter, with the foot stomp starter, there is a small wire terminal on the side of the starter at the foot stomp switch. that is where the bypass wire connects. the other end of that wire connects directly to the coil pos terminal. if it was running and it stalled abruptly i would say the bypass wire is likely fine since it doesn't have an effect on a running engine, it is only energized when the starter is energized. in this link there is a pic of the starter wthat shows the terminal.

https://www.trifive.com/threads/foot...issues.237924/

if you have a bad ballast resistor the engine would start like normal and then stall abruptly when the starter is released. this is because the bypass wire is energized when starting, so the engine would get spark, then when the starter is released the engine quits because the coil loses power to the coil during "run" mode if the resistor is shot
start by checking for power at the coil positive terminal. disconnect the wire there and check with key on. you chould get less than battery voltage because of the ballast resistor
connect that wire and slip a business card between the points contacts, then check for power at the points positive connection. if no power then start backtracking through the system from the points to the coil to see where you lose power. sometimes it is the nsulator on the distributor that gets cracked or damaged and causes a short to ground. sometimes it is the points themselves that have become shorted, sometimes it can be the condensor or the short wire to the condensor has worn through. sometimes the points spring has moved and shorted to ground.
if your fuel pump keeps losing it's prime it is an easy and relatively cheap fix to replace the pump. buy a good quality unit if you can. I have found that usually when they do this it is because the little one way valves inside have either given up and don't seal well or else there is debris in the pump and something is keeping the outlet valve open a little. the usual problem I find is that the valves have stuck closed from extended sitting so the pump doesn't work at all. in this case a little help from a small blast of compressed air through the pump, from inlet to outlet, will unstick the valves. a SMALL blast, low pressure! bleed back could also be caused by leaky connections or simply evaporated fuel in the carb if it sits for extended periods.
some starters have a metal band around the end of the body where the brushes are located and this makes checking the brushes easier to do. I suggest to check the brushes and see what you have left if your starter seems to be dragging. you can also see the armature brush contact area so it can be checked for bad spots quickly.

[studeclunker]

Originally Posted by dsraven

if you have the stock 235 starter, with the foot stomp starter, there is a small wire terminal on the side of the starter at the foot stomp switch. that is where the bypass wire connects. the other end of that wire connects directly to the coil pos terminal. if it was running and it stalled abruptly i would say the bypass wire is likely fine since it doesn't have an effect on a running engine, it is only energized when the starter is energized. in this link there is a pic of the starter wthat shows the terminal.

https://www.trifive.com/threads/foot...issues.237924/

if you have a bad ballast resistor the engine would start like normal and then stall abruptly when the starter is released. this is because the bypass wire is energized when starting, so the engine would get spark, then when the starter is released the engine quits because the coil loses power to the coil during "run" mode if the resistor is shot
start by checking for power at the coil positive terminal. disconnect the wire there and check with key on. you chould get less than battery voltage because of the ballast resistor
connect that wire and slip a business card between the points contacts, then check for power at the points positive connection. if no power then start backtracking through the system from the points to the coil to see where you lose power. sometimes it is the nsulator on the distributor that gets cracked or damaged and causes a short to ground. sometimes it is the points themselves that have become shorted, sometimes it can be the condensor or the short wire to the condensor has worn through. sometimes the points spring has moved and shorted to ground.
if your fuel pump keeps losing it's prime it is an easy and relatively cheap fix to replace the pump. buy a good quality unit if you can. I have found that usually when they do this it is because the little one way valves inside have either given up and don't seal well or else there is debris in the pump and something is keeping the outlet valve open a little. the usual problem I find is that the valves have stuck closed from extended sitting so the pump doesn't work at all. in this case a little help from a small blast of compressed air through the pump, from inlet to outlet, will unstick the valves. a SMALL blast, low pressure! bleed back could also be caused by leaky connections or simply evaporated fuel in the carb if it sits for extended periods.
some starters have a metal band around the end of the body where the brushes are located and this makes checking the brushes easier to do. I suggest to check the brushes and see what you have left if your starter seems to be dragging. you can also see the armature brush contact area so it can be checked for bad spots quickly.

Well, this ran for a few minutes after I had released the starter. It was when I pushed in the choke that it died.

Thank you for the link. I will have a look at the starter. It could be that with all this excessive running it has worn down the already very old brushes.

So, if the ballast Resistor is bad, the truck will kick over and die as soon as the starter is released? I don't even get that. It makes no attempt to start at all, so methinks I'm back to a broken wire or maybe a fuse?

"start by checking for power at the coil positive terminal."
Check, I have power to the positive terminal.

I haven't done a thorough check like that at the points. It's next on the list.

Will do a check and try your advised method to reset the check valves on the fuel pump.

Thanks for the advice.

[dsraven]

if I were you, to cut some corners, I would pull the coil wire out of the distributor cap and do a spark test by simply holding the end of the coil wire about 1/4" from the engine block while somebody cranks the engine for a second or two. you should get a nice blue spark. that would solve the spark or no spark question an also show you the quality of the spark you get. you can check for spark with the key in the "run" position by simply operating the points manually with a plastic tool of some sort, so you won't short out the points with a screw driver. just remove the distributor cap to expose the points, turn the engine by hand till the points are closed, then move the points to the open position while checking the ign coil wire for spark against the engine block. a home made spark tester would be great here if you work by yourself as it can be hard to hold the wire at 1/4" away and also move the points. a buddy cranking the engine doesn't test the ballast resistor circuit so moving the points open manually is the way. juat don't leave the ign on for long or the points will get fried.
once you have spark, and assuming it isn't a spark issue that caused it to die, I would check the fuel pump output. pressure and volume.

[leegreen]

Originally Posted by studeclunker

The fuel pump doesn't like to hold the fuel and thus must pump all the way up to the carb, or I have to prime things. However even that doesn't work right now. I don't think it's a fuel problem.

snip

It was when I pushed in the choke that it died

Those two quotes sound to me like a fuel problem.

Unless it has sat for quite a spell, there should be fuel in the float bowl and it should start from that even if the pump is weak.

if it is really lean, it takes a bunch of cranking to build up fuel in the intake and fire it off

if it dies when you push in the choke, again it is too lean.
has it started to have trouble idling or running without partial choke too?

Since it was running and driving before I'd look for a new vacuum leak, maybe check the carb is still bolted down and bolted together. look for a cracked line going to distributor or to wipers.

[dsraven]

when troubleshooting I always start with the basics and get deeper into it as needed. spark, fuel, air, compression. check spark at the coil wire and dizzy input, check spark at plug wires, check spark plugs, check dizzy rotor and cap, check fuel in the tank, check fuel at the carb, check fuel pump output and pressure, check for restricted fuel lines or filters, check intake bolts torque and carb base mounting bolts are tight, check exhaust heat riser for operation and general exhaust condition for possible restrictions, check engine compression, pull the lid off the carb and check for debris in the bowl or other problems
like LG says, sounds like a fuel issue and since you gotta prime it all the time, maybe start at the fuel delivery system. what I have done in the past is use a gravity feed fuel tank for testing or running things when there is no gas tank. I have modified the lid on a gas can to accept a fuel line. when the gas can is placed on it's side the lid is at the bottom. just an idea. you could eliminate the fuel delivery system and see if it runs on a seperate, stand alone, fuel tank. the tank would need to be higher than the carb or course. and, as always, be carefull when dealing with fuel and ignition sources and have an extinguisher handy

[studeclunker]

Well... I do believe the problem is solved... I think. As much as is possible for now. The starter does seem to have gotten rather weak and I believe it will have to either be rebuilt or replaced. I might just try replacing brushes and etc myself. Provided I can find a set.

[dsraven]

so, whsat was the problem that made it quit?