Where does a guy start?

[slowcpe]

I’m a big fan of remote sub knobs. Allows me to tune the bass level for the music and mood.

I haven’t had a chance to look at the gear yet but will sometime today. One thing, if you are looking into the Power line for budget and going for great clarity over volume, look into some of the more entry level Focals. That’s what I’m eventually putting in my daily whenever I decide to tear the interior apart.

[Pinchecharlie]

Focal amps or speakers? Sorry to be so dumb.
I should make a confession...I like mellow music...I know it's very gay...So when I was researching I was sucked in by "advertised " claims. So when trying to decide on speakers I looked at silk or fabric tweeters over aluminum or a mixture? I really like the focul brand and it has a great reputation but I didn't seem to find silk stuff? It was a compromise for silk with less power requirements that led to the model speakers. Seemed like a lot of what "I think" I might want was 75-150 watt and I didn't want to buy 2 or 3 amps? I may still not have enough knowledge to understand what I am reading though. Every time I go down a road. I start understanding what's considered best and think that's the thing to do but that's pretty immature lol! Hmm....
I feel all most positive that I would be happy with much less but having fun trying to be cool. It's been along time since I was cool if ever lol.
I should say to that you nailed my expectation...I would like very clean nice sound at low volumes. The idea of sound staging is pretty cool and iam trying to resist the temptation to go over board but iam sure i will. Kinda good and bad that i can see 1500 dollar total and think " oh thats not bad" (I like to hide from my life in my truck and sit and listen to music and eat shi@ food)

[BIGglaSS]

You have picked out some solid choices. If you gave the forums two options of what you should do, you’re going to get equal votes, plus five more guys telling you to buy what they have because it’s the “best”. Can you spend less, yes. Can you get higher audiophile, yes. Here’s a quote I recently read on the audio forum I follow: Which is better can not be answered. The absolute only way to decide is using both in the exact same install. And since that can’t be done.. go with the one you like best.

If you’re happy, that’s all that matters. Who’s truck is better? Who cares, as long as it lays rubber!

There’s nothing wrong with what you have picked. HOWEVER, the 80prs has “network mode” which will allow you to separate the front stage components to their own channel. You get to control the crossover point, speaker level, and time alignment. To do this, each speaker needs it’s own channel, so a 5-channel amp, or 4 channel + monoblock. This is too powerful of a tool, not take advantage of!

Your subwoofer pick is solid. I would like to see a 2 ohm version, but that’s OK, we can fix it with more power You can’t engineer, and build a box for much less than that. By building your own box, you can tailor it to your space requirements or tune it to a different frequency. But that is getting into another level.

Morel has a solid reputation and following. I’m struggling to find detailed specs/parameters on their components. However they make top quality raw drivers that would cost a lot more than the component set you listed. However, with the supplied x-overs, you will not be able to lower the crossover frequency if needed. Without physically looking at the woofer, I don’t know if you can remove the passive crossover.. But, that’s OK! You can still do some tuning to get it close enough!

Back to your previous questions..

Just curious...why don't guys ditch the ven't and fabricate an opening in the kick panel. You could weld in a surround and seal it to weather and fit a larger or at least a least intrusive speaker.

This is more complicated than it sounds. I tried, and decided it wasn’t worth the effort on this build. Next build, (if there is one) I will attempt it again with some different ideas. I brought this topic up on the audio forum, and got answers talking about Qs and Fs… Over my head. Short story, component speakers aren’t designed to be in a sealed enclosure like subwoofers. It might sound fine, it might not. I am sealing off the cowl fresh air intake, and using the whole cowl area as an enclosure. Some guys vent their pods into the carpet or the cowl area.

You could do 2-4 inch coax in dash grill and tweeters on dash and the 6x9s in kick?

Yes, you could. But, to get the multiple speakers to “play nicely together”, you would have to have more processors, amp channels, and tuning software. You are better off without. With that said, I’m going to do it in my Olds, but I understand what I’m getting into. If it fails, just throw more money at it.

And, now we’re back to amps… I didn’t put much effort into looking at those yet. RF prime amps get a few solid rec’s when under a budget. I know nothing about these, Slowcpe may have a better pick or opinion.

If you go with the 80prs in network mode (active): Sticking with RF line, take a look at Power 400 T-400-4 paired with Prime R500X1D for the sub. RF also has a Power series 5 channel, but it lacks bass remote control. Slowcpe also mentioned he has a prime 4 channel. That would also work.

A few more ideas that get lots of thumbs up on the audio forum: Bang for buck, NVX JAD900.5 $229. Alpine PDX-9V $700. Zapco St-5x II $289, NO bass remote! JL Audio has too many choices for me to wade through at the moment, but their RD900/5 $549 could be a solid option.

That's all I got for now.

[BIGglaSS]

Originally Posted by Pinchecharlie

Focal amps or speakers? Sorry to be so dumb.
I should make a confession...I like mellow music...I know it's very gay...So when I was researching I was sucked in by "advertised " claims. So when trying to decide on speakers I looked at silk or fabric tweeters over aluminum or a mixture? I really like the focul brand and it has a great reputation but I didn't seem to find silk stuff? It was a compromise for silk with less power requirements that led to the model speakers.

You're not dumb! It takes experience to gain experience. Hey, I'll admit I listen to Adele and Dido. I like everything from the Beatles to hardcore metal and everything in between. It's a personal taste.

As far as silk and paper cone, you're on the right track. I didn't go with Focal for the same reason. But, lots of guys like them.

[slowcpe]

Ok for starters I apologize. I read this early this morning without my contacts in and just saw RF Power. Didn’t realize that was the amp. I have a small Power Marine 500x1 for the sub in my side-by-side and its killer. That should be a nice amp. I just think for the money of the Power speakers you can get a better audiophile-grade speaker.

The Prime amps have impressed me for a budget. However I can usually take a really nice amplifier and crappy speakers and make it sound great. Much harder to do the other way around.

I’ve never messed with active front stage in car audio but have done bi-amp and active speaker theater rooms and the results can be incredible. Back in the day our Theater Rooms would consisted of Genelec 2 and 3-way active studio monitors. Those rooms sounded INCREDIBLE. But the market I’m in now doesn’t warrant many rooms where speakers start out at $3000 each.

I personally know nothing about Morel other than their Octave Signature cabinets are a near direct copy to B&W’s 800 Series. From their website their car speakers look good, especially if you want a soft dome tweeter.

I totally understand wanting to go with a soft dome tweeter. I’ve actually never heard Focal’s car audio line but have read good reviews and demoed their home line. Aluminum dome tweeters do have a tendency to be bright or harsh but I can usually tune most of that out. Plus I like to jam every now and then. Most boat systems we do (in-cabin) have metal dome so everyone can rock out while cruising down the water at 80mph.

Sound is totally subjective so it really boils down to what sounds good to you. Our showroom at work was designed around that. I have a simple in-ceiling 5.1 setup using aluminum cone/metal dome in-ceiling speakers with a Marantz receiver and JL 10” subwoofer. I also have a very well engineered Theater Room using separate processor/ampliers, (2) Totem Double 8” subwoofers, and (9) Monitor Audio Gold speakers with ribbon tweeters, it’s $22k just in audio. I’ve had clients come in and say the sub $3000 “bright” system sounds a whole lot better. My office has a pair of Totem Sky’s that have a soft dome tweeter. We put our most popular speakers that range from $200/pr to over $2000 and let the client tell us what sounds good. Then we base the system off of that.

[Pinchecharlie]

Hmm...
Well I should first thank you for your time and expertise
Thanks!
And now be honest
Iam a bit lost!
So the aperant capabilities of the pioneer hu (accident)
Allow another level of tunability...?
But the cross overs supplied with the morel speakers are not as tunable as to be desired.
Also the "tunable" system requires more channels (I get that)
Now with what you suggest do I end up with a system that is only as good as I am?
I researched the basics and had none of the vocabulary but understand the goal. But don't know how capable iam in achieving it.
So ..I thought 2 things...
Buy 5 channel soley for space constraints or
Up the anty for way beyond my skill level and add 2nd amp/dsp and be on the edge of audiophile? After re reading this , that sound a bit over board for a truck cab?
Passing and refracted sound waves and adjusting for delays and iam sure that's a very short list of things to learn lol! Hmm..I dunno?!
So..now iam thinking...lower the bar on some prices and add these items to achieve the suggested? Or just keep going and really piss off my wife?
I would be willing to offer a full garden for more specific suggestions? Ie- just tell me! Lol!
Lastly- how about a guy uses the retro sound speaker pod and just recesses it into the kick panel? So rather hat. Creating an enclosure your just hiding o e that's allr3ady been thought out? Ok now I feel like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel but it's been a happy distraction from other things so fun. Thanks guys and if I get this going and become an expert I will return the favors!

[BIGglaSS]

Charlie, I'm sorry you feel overwhelmed. Yes, the DSP with the 80prs is a tool that will make your system shine.

Based on your "premium" choices, I tweaked the amp recommendation in the same product line to allow active components. The net cost was about the same. If you change brands, your budget can easily be cut in half for speakers and amps. It sounds like you've fallen down the slippery slope and the cost was more than you are comfortable with.

Again, when shopping from the internet, there is no way to demo anything. You have to go by reviews, and specs. Of course, you can demo some of these speakers at a shop, but when you pair them with a different amp and in a car, they're going to sound different. I don't like to go to a shop to listen, and then run home and order it on the internet. If you're going to a shop to use their time and recommendations, buy from them and/or have them install. For a custom install, the price is going to be significantly higher than what you have planned.

4+1 or 5 channel doesn't really matter. Some of the 5 channels do not have remote bass control.

There is nothing wrong with the x-over on the Morel speaker you picked. It can mostly be tuned around. I could explain further, but don't want to confuse you.

If you're willing to get away from RF and Morel, I can give you more amp ideas in entry and mid-level. (Just give me a couple days)

If you're willing to make your own subwoofer box, I can suggest a way cheaper sub.

Also, I would only set you up with 5 channel if you chose the 80prs. If you decide on something else, like no HU or the Retrosound, then we can stick with a 4 channel, or 2+1.

So, back to your original question, "Where does a guy start?", Lets narrow down a head unit.
Pioneer 80prs, Retrosound, or no head unit?

[Pinchecharlie]

Thanks! Iam just wondering if it isn't worth swapping a 100 here and there to afford other items to end up with a truly tunable system? Example , the nvx amp saves 100, add active Passover, same price. Within the same product lines I can still shave a little to add more flexibility? You know how it goes...as soon as you buy a cam, you need springs then you need rockers then your valve covers don't fit and shi@ your carbs to small might as well step up to fuel injection ! Iam not to bummed about money, I like spending money. I've blown this budget awhile back. I just don't know these products well enough to make good decisions lol. My local shop wanted 4500 for custom enclosure and unknown electronics so if I can come in at half that with a bad as@ set up iam good.
So to make things less confusing I'll stick with my list and start trying to understanding how they work lol! Iam bad about going full tilt!! All I need for a pretty good system with my list is an extra channel so far and if I want to go nutty- a dsp and active crossover and..? Ok buddy your not my mom so I can't expect you to hold my hand forever so I'll hit the books and finger this out a bit on my lonesome. Just out of curiosity...what does a guy have in his car to win contests? Individual amps per speaker? All active 3 way speakers? Dsp and bass boost...just everything you can buy lol!!! Ok enough babble! It's only Tuesday and iam allr3ady 2 days behind!

[Pinchecharlie]

oh shi@ its wednesday!

[slowcpe]

Its real easy to overthink things in audio....well pretty much any project area for that matter.

To keep it simple: stick with good components, don't try and re-create the wheel and you should be good. At the end of the day you are installing a stereo in a small tin can Plus its easy to tweak things here and there in these trucks.

Unless you are an audiophile with a trained ear most good gear will yield the sound you are looking for and just like horsepower your tastes will change as you go along.

[Pinchecharlie]

Yeah your right that's good advice! I re read and took notes lol and I think I have enough info to get a system that's way beyond average. Iam watching you tube stuff and reading just for education sake. Now iam trying just to understand what all the parts actually do and why guys do em. Thanks again for all the help! I'll re post a revised list soon and see what you guys think.

[BIGglaSS]

Originally Posted by Pinchecharlie

I want to go nutty- a dsp and active crossover and..?

Just to be clear, the 80prs already has this.

[Pinchecharlie]

Hey Thanks! Yeah I finally understand that a little better lol. I had to read and download the hu to even kinda get it lol! There are some guys that complain about some features but I won't lie and say I really get it. Just for fun and education...
Line out put- voltage, why is this important? So guys say this limits hu/dsp? Like I hear it's only 2.5 volts and I need blah blah blah or it's 5.4 and my blah goes bad.
Guys say that the outputs in pairs are limiting? So it has front back and sub and big boys want 6,8,or 10 individual out puts in there dsp Why? Rabbit hole lol!
So hu sends signal to dsp. dsp sends to amps. Amps to drivers.
So that's where iam at now lol! Embarrassing!
The only thing that sucks about the rabbits hole is it seems like there are so many ways to do it!
Basically decided to just add a mono for sub and see if I can learn to tune the hu and go from there. Thanks for all the help. I'll post the amps later and see what ya think.

[Pinchecharlie]

Sorry I had to run off and wanted to see a few more things just for my head.
So is the end all be all for big boys to be able to increase/decrease and or manipulate each and every set of frequencies just so they can assign them to the proper driver and or be able to modify them? I get time alignment and the how's and WhYs make since but the latter iam a bit confused over. How deep is the hole? Are these silly boys with 50k in there cars still limited to what snoop dogs engineer was using at the time of the recording lol?
What's your realistic interpretations of the gear you want to run?

[BIGglaSS]

Originally Posted by Pinchecharlie

How deep is the hole? Are these silly boys with 50k in there cars still limited to what snoop dogs engineer was using at the time of the recording lol?
What's your realistic interpretations of the gear you want to run?

Yep, I honestly think you've gone too deep down the hole. I think you will be quite surprised with a 2-way front stage. You can always add more later and build onto the system. If you're interested in more than a 2 way system, go to: http://diymobileaudio.com/
and spend 3-6 months reading and participating in this forum before you buy anything. There is no rush to buy anything now. Maybe, a head unit if you're going to cut the dash. Everything else can be installed after body / paint.

[Pinchecharlie]

Now I just want to know why more than how lol! But of course you are right! I do not want to buy an osicilscop ever to be honest. Ya ha it's like my twin turbo project to much for my puny little brain. Ok so iam just going to shi# can all this over the top stuff. Unless there's a really good reason not to use Rockford fosgate I think I'll use the ones you recommended and call it good. Maybe when iam ready I'll ask for set up advice too! I've been reading a lot on diyma but it is hard reading ! Not to many noobs around there. Their classified have some good stuff but for now I'll do new just to be safe. I'll buy my helix there in a couple years lol! Thanks my friend you've been a good sport and I appreciate all your time! I'll check back in when iam installing!

[Travisarmenta]

Just read through this entire thread and thank you guys for the input. I'm in the same boat, only my ride is much larger. I want my kids to be able to enjoy the music while sitting in the back, but I don't want to break the bank either.

[elorenzof]

@BIGlaSS,

Did i read that you would stay away from a center speaker(s) with the kick panel speaker set up? Or the other option would be to put in two Tweeters in the center speaker opening? I am looking at a 6.5 kick panel speakers 3 or 4 way probably 3 way, a 10" enclosed subwoofer for under the passenger side and a kicker CX 600.1 amplifier with a Retrosound Long Beach Radio as it has a built in Subwoofer output. I have a budget of about $1,000 for this and it fits it. Gas tank still in the cab so i don't have room behind the seat. Will this suffice for some good sound? Any advise please? Im pretty eclectic ( country, Jazz, Pop, Heavy metal too).

[BIGglaSS]

Originally Posted by elorenzof

@BIGlaSS,

Did i read that you would stay away from a center speaker(s) with the kick panel speaker set up? Or the other option would be to put in two Tweeters in the center speaker opening?

Correct. When you don't install mids/tweets in the same location, you will have to use a processor and time delay to tune.

[Kudzupatch]

I have scanned the responses and there is some solid advice. I am just going to toss out what I did in my Suburban and not trying to talk you into or out of anything.

Being a big music fan when I bought mine it was the first thing I did. I replaced the head unit with one with a JVC 25 amp output I think it was. Bluetooth receiver was a big deal for me as I link to my phone and Pandora to it. I put my money into replacing all 6 speakers in the car with the best I could afford and that would fit in the existing space.

I added a Sound Ordinance power sub. It fits (barely) under the front passenger seat not taking up space as I travel in this one and didn't want a big sub and amp taking up cargo space. I used to teach kayak building classes and would load it full of supplies, so space was important. I was a little concerned about this choice but have never regretted it.

Here is the newest version. It is not going to rattle windows but it provides plenty of bass for a realistic levels. I listen to a lot of Jazz and Blues which never had strong bass but this can bring it out no problem. But when I listen to newer music that really pushes the bass level I have to turn the bass down a lot from the older classic music.

Not audiophile quality obvious but I huge improvement over stock and in my opinion has a excellent sound. I have no complaints at all with it. It will get louder than I am going sit and listen to it at and the powered sub produces plenty of bass. For what it is worth.....

[slowcpe]

I'll give an update on my system that I've mentioned in this thread. Here's a few things I've noticed:

Having the dash speakers really livens up the system but been struggling balancing them out with the components. I'm probably going to unhook them for a while before I decide whether or not to leave them.

I mounted the tweeters just above the drivers in the kickpanels. I need to re-adjust the drivers tweeter position. There are times driving down the road that I'm unsure its even playing.

The PS8 definitely adds much needed bass to the system but its pretty much localized to the passenger side of the truck. Pretty sure I'm going to add a second under the drivers seat to even out the bass. This will require a new, smaller amp that will fit on the trans hump under the seat. But first I want to test without the dash speakers so I know if I need to order a 2 or 4-channel amp.

Overall the system sounds really good and have gotten several compliments.

[Johns 66]

I read this entire thread and being a noob myself am wondering where people are putting speakers.

I will not cut my doors....especially since they are NOS.....
The only thing I have bought is a center dash speaker that has a dual speaker set up but mounts like the original...I think it was 40.00 so Im sure its not the best speakers out there.

I really like having the fresh air vents and don't really like how the speakers stick out when placed in the kick panels and maintaining the fresh air vent.

Also adding to this is that I bought a 24 gallon tank that goes behind the seat and it pretty much takes up all the room behind the seat.

I have read about some low profile speakers that fit under the seat but again don't know much about these...
Any suggestions?

[BIGglaSS]

John, there is no 'perfect' solution. Mid and high range speakers are designed to be aimed within about 30 degrees of the listener. So, that rules out under the seat. A center speaker does not have stereo separation. I chose to use the vents for installation in my 57. It was a last resort decision because I wanted to keep the system stealth.

Under seat subwoofers lack authority, but may be OK if you're only looking to fill in a missing frequency.

I agree to not cut doors for speakers. Worse case scenario, if you want to hide everything, use 2 speakers in the center grill. Other wise, some kind of dash or kick panel pods are a must have for good quality sound.

Putting mid and high range speakers under the seat or the rear corners will never sound like the recording is intended. You would never go to a concert and turn your back the the stage, right? But as a last resort, a lot of guys do that, and are happy with it...

[Johns 66]

Originally Posted by BIGglaSS

John, there is no 'perfect' solution. Mid and high range speakers are designed to be aimed within about 30 degrees of the listener. So, that rules out under the seat. A center speaker does not have stereo separation. I chose to use the vents for installation in my 57. It was a last resort decision because I wanted to keep the system stealth.

Under seat subwoofers lack authority, but may be OK if you're only looking to fill in a missing frequency.

I agree to not cut doors for speakers. Worse case scenario, if you want to hide everything, use 2 speakers in the center grill. Other wise, some kind of dash or kick panel pods are a must have for good quality sound.

Putting mid and high range speakers under the seat or the rear corners will never sound like the recording is intended. You would never go to a concert and turn your back the the stage, right? But as a last resort, a lot of guys do that, and are happy with it...

You make very good points on all.....I do like my music and I like it a lil loud from time to time....mainly country but nowadays country is putting some bass into it.....soooooo

I talked with an interior man and he said he could hide the speakers in the fresh air vents, only seeing the speaker grill...but then I lose the fresh air vent and since I am not putting AC on my truck at this point and the Alabama humidity fresh air would be a plus.

The under seat speakers I looked at are from Undercover Speakers II
250 Watts Peak Power Handling per Speaker
• 8" Woofer in Each Speaker
• 2 Piezo Tweeters in Each Speaker
• 11"(W) x 12"(L) x 3"(H)

Not sure what all that means or how it will sound....These run bout 140.00 a set.

Since I will be wiring my truck I really don't want to take it to a stereo shop, or as I call them...wiring harness destroyers, not interested in the rattling bass that you can feel 3 blocks away....more of a clearer sound. We have several local shows that play oldies music which Im kinda fond of as well.

I looked at head units and have found them any where from 189.00 to 399.00 but these look like the older more stock units...again wont be cutting the dash so gotta get something that's gonna fit....My only requirement besides fitment will be a USB port so I can play my music that I have stored on a flash drive. It was suggested that I could send my original unit off and have it rebuilt but that's extremely expensive.....I had thought about XM/Sirius but know that it has its own antenna and not sure how well it would do inside the truck...definitely not gonna put it on the outside.

Not sure what power requirement I need as far as the radio, speakers, amp etc.....I have seen 2 channel 25 watt RMS???? 4 Channel etc....

I understand you get what you pay for but life posted earlier not wanting to spend a kings ransom on it either.

I am definitely open for suggestions and really do appreciate you taking the time to explain this to a not so young fella...lol

[BIGglaSS]

Originally Posted by Johns 66

Y
I am definitely open for suggestions and really do appreciate you taking the time to explain this to a not so young fella...lol

No problem! It will take me a while to address everything you said. When I get a chance, I'll take a look at the speakers you mentioned, but my first thought is gimmick...

First, set a budget with what you're willing to pay.

If you don't want to cut the dash:
1. Retrosound radios get a solid reputation, AND, I own one. (But haven't installed it yet).
2. Bluetooth interface + amps (but no FM radio options that I know of!)

Meanwhile, check out my Squarebody stereo from the thread in my signature. It is a very simple head unit, amp, speakers, and 8" subwoofer. Total investment $257. This won't fool an audiophile, but will impress many folks that spend 3x that amount.

For my '57 pickup, I spent $1000 total for Retrosound head unit, component speakers, 5 ch amp, 8" subwoofer, and digital signal processor. All name-brand quality stuff! Granted, I bought this a few years ago. In today's dollars at full retail would be north of $1500.

You don't have to spend a fortune to get great sound. Thoughtful design and seeking out great deals will save you a lot of $.

If you put speakers in the vents, you should close off the air vents. I am sealing the fresh air intake on my cowl, and running A/C. I installed quality co-axial component speakers into my fresh air vents. Not perfect, but an acceptable trade-off.

The speakers will be covered with these 63 impala vents: